Future proofing Victorias rail system

 
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A couple of points for the discusion...............

Vlocity's like nearly all later rail vehicles the maximum speed is set in the control system. The engine and gearbox for these are capable of 200kph. In all the ones I have timed the maximum speed is between 160 to 167kph.

The Vlocity's take around 7 to 8 kilometres to reach 160kph, a grade in excess of 1 in 100 will prevent it from reaching 160kph. This means there only capable of 160kph cruise if stops are MORE than 50 kilometers apart. On the Bendigo and Ballarat lines for instance  services running to the country, 160kph running is only availble for small part of the distance.
Even on the NE line simulations show the only place 160kph saves a signifiant amount of time is between Avenal and Euroa.

As others have already stated 130kph runnings is easily availble, A Vlocity can reach in 130kph a very short distance, so can show quite significant timing improvements even on N class hauled 115kph services. Such speeds can made availble on the current rail system with a relatively cheap cost.

On the current Geelong line, its unlikely 200kph running using Vlocity's would save more than a few seconds over a good 160kph run.

woodford

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
A couple of points for the discusion...............

This means there only capable of 160kph cruise if stops are MORE than 50 kilometers apart. On the Bendigo and  

woodford
woodford

Nonsense...

5 Km apart perhaps...but 50Km...NAR...no way. I should know, I'm travelling on them every day as a passenger and have had more cab rides as a passenger than most who post in these pages.

Mike.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
5 Km apart perhaps...but 50Km...NAR...no way. I should know, I'm travelling on them every day as a passenger and have had more cab rides as a passenger than most who post in these pages.

Mike.
The Vinelander
I tend to agree Mike, Bendigo trains leaving Sunbury on the Up enter a 160km/h section at the Up end of Diggers Rest and seem to manage 160 before the fun ends just after Calder Park Drive. Granted this section may be slightly down grade but a Vlocity seems to manage it OK nonetheless.

BG
  woodford Chief Commissioner

For what its worth I will stand by my mathematical modelling. I have traveled on the Ballarat line more than a dozen times and timed every trip and have modified my mathematics to incorporate what i have learned from the timings.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
how about instead of future proofing, we "Present Proof" first, then worry about the future in about 40 years, which seems to be Standard Operating Practice for V/Line
n459L1150
I couldn't agree more with this comment. With constant signalling issues, track faults, mechanical breakdowns, lack of staff to run existing services etc etc V/Line isn't running anything like the service as timetabled / advertised.

Most passengers would much rather see any new money for rail spent on fixing what we already have before venturing into any brave new world.

Take the Bendigo line for example (as it is the only V/Line one I travel on) where some re-timetabling, changes to signalling, priority pathing in the Metro area and some short term pain for long term gain re-duplication from Kyneton to Taradale could make a massive difference to service reliability and also allow for more services to be run.

BG
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I tend to agree Mike, Bendigo trains leaving Sunbury on the Up enter a 160km/h section at the Up end of Diggers Rest and seem to manage 160 before the fun ends just after Calder Park Drive. Granted this section may be slightly down grade but a Vlocity seems to manage it OK nonetheless.

BG
BrentonGolding
Also interesting to note that per the V/Line corporate website Network Service Plan https://corporate.vline.com.au/Network-Access/Network-service-plan

160 km/h running is allowed "West Line KP 153.200 to KP 158.598 down side of Kangaroo Flat Platform" which is one of the 4 sections allowing 160 on the Bendigo line.

This section is less that 5.5kms long so it would be interesting to know what speeds are achievable in this section presuming you are running an express service through Kangaroo Flat negating the need to slow down for the platform.

And yes, I'm looking at you hbedriver / Jakar / Daly Waters!

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
For what its worth I will stand by my mathematical modelling. I have traveled on the Ballarat line more than a dozen times and timed every trip and have modified my mathematics to incorporate what i have learned from the timings.
woodford

Well Woodford, you may have your mathematical modelling...I've had real time experience.

Remember you've also written the NE is unsuitable for 160Km/h running north of Seymour if/when the track is finally fixed due to a couple of tiny rises in the geography near Glenrowan.

I've written previously on the Ballarat line where 160Km/h speeds are routinely in operation and the sections that are posted 160...are much more than the sections that aren't.

Mike.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Incidentally I notice the next order of Vlos (80 and above maybe?) will be limited by a software change to 650hp, for fuel economy reasons. So whatever their current performance is, it won’t be getting any better!
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Incidentally I notice the next order of Vlos (80 and above maybe?) will be limited by a software change to 650hp, for fuel economy reasons. So whatever their current performance is, it won’t be getting any better!
potatoinmymouth
Are you able to post a reference to this?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Incidentally I notice the next order of Vlos (80 and above maybe?) will be limited by a software change to 650hp, for fuel economy reasons. So whatever their current performance is, it won’t be getting any better!
Are you able to post a reference to this?
SamTheMan79
RTBU LocoLines Edition 70 (March 2018):

VL75, the last of the current order for Vlocitys, has been delivered. The next order, for four trains, VL76-79, will has some differences. The most significant of these is:
...
  • Emissions to Euro II standard (particulate filter added to muffler).
  • Lowering of traction engine output to 650 hp. (For fuel economy
V/Line Cab Committee Report
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
What is the traction engine output of VLocity's currently in service Question

M.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
What is the traction engine output of VLocity's currently in service Question

M.
The Vinelander
They're meant to be rated at 559kW, which if my dodgy math is correct is around 750bhp.
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Also interesting to note that per the V/Line corporate website Network Service Plan https://corporate.vline.com.au/Network-Access/Network-service-plan

160 km/h running is allowed "West Line KP 153.200 to KP 158.598 down side of Kangaroo Flat Platform" which is one of the 4 sections allowing 160 on the Bendigo line.

This section is less that 5.5kms long so it would be interesting to know what speeds are achievable in this section presuming you are running an express service through Kangaroo Flat negating the need to slow down for the platform.

And yes, I'm looking at you hbedriver / Jakar / Daly Waters!

BG
BrentonGolding
On the down, after Big Hill tunnel, there are two curves to slow down for.  The second one is the bottom of the grade.  Then power to be doing 155kmh at the 155kmh post , then brake for Kangaroo Flat station.  So 155 is the maximum that will be reached on the down.

On the up, the maximum would be about 130 to the tunnel due to the grade and curves.
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

I am led to believe that the optimum operating scenario for the Bombardier velocity is as four or less units.  Anything above four becomes an inefficient way of operating with traction and auxiliary motors in each unit.

The Sprinter is supposedly worse with the efficiency going out the window after two units.

So, of course we will get more Velocities for our long distance services.  One thing for sure, we can never accuse PTV of wasting any time on investigating what trains are optimum for our services.  The laziest option is to order more of the interurban cars and try to tweak them to suit the purpose.  Just like the old days when the N cars were built for interurban but then ended up on long distance as a stop gap measure that never changed.

To my way of thinking, I see the XPT style set up as being best for long distance services.

Solid locomotives at the front for level crossing protection, smooth riding cars with no motors vibrating underneath, ability to swap out one car out for maintenance without taking the whole train out, Locomotive at the rear means no need for run round at the terminus.  Also means redundancy should the front loco fail.  Auxiliary power provided from 50% of the rear locomotive power output.

The XPT is a fair age now but surely someone is building using the same concept somewhere.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
For what its worth I will stand by my mathematical modelling. I have traveled on the Ballarat line more than a dozen times and timed every trip and have modified my mathematics to incorporate what i have learned from the timings.
"woodford"
Why would anyone use timings for the hilly and winding Ballarat line as a guide?  Sale to Bairnsdale or Ararat to Serviceton or Avenel to Wodonga would have to give vastly different timings.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
On the down, after Big Hill tunnel, there are two curves to slow down for.  The second one is the bottom of the grade.  Then power to be doing 155kmh at the 155kmh post , then brake for Kangaroo Flat station.  So 155 is the maximum that will be reached on the down.

On the up, the maximum would be about 130 to the tunnel due to the grade and curves.
DalyWaters
Thanks DW, great info. So maybe the key to understanding the ability of a Vlocity to reach 160km/h or close to is to know the speed it is already doing when it reaches the section allowing the highest speed.

From a standing start it may well take quite some distance to reach the magic 100MPH mark but if the train is already travelling at line speed in a 130km/h section from your info above you can reach 160 withing just a few km (obviously depending on grade)

Bearing in mind that when the RFR first opened not all trains stopped Kangaroo Flat I assume that 160km/h running was indeed obtainable in this short section of just over 5km after coming off a 130km/h section.

The old Gradients diagram shows the curves on the Down side of Big Hill Tunnel to be in the 60 > 80 range, were these eased during the RFR works I wonder.

BG

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