It's the economy, stupid!

 
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Just momentarily going back to Don's love of all things Tesla.......

I wonder how he would have coped with Robert Stephenson back in the day Razz

Sponsored advertisement

  HardWorkingMan Chief Commissioner

Location: Echuca
we also have a very high cost of living which is the other side of the coin.  If we didn't have the high costs we wouldn't need the high wages to cover it. Conversely nobody want to take the first cut to break the cycle as lower cost of living mean lower wages are needed to maintain a lifestyle above the poverty line.

this is where the American system fails, they have large numbers of people where both partners working can't cover the costs of living as their wages are so low, think janitors, cleaners, factory workers etc. Their retail and hospitality workers rely on tips to make ends meet - often their wages barely cover their uniform costs.  Should people be working this hard to be in poverty?

These people are too busy working to make ends meet to be able to take the time out to do training etc to improve themselves as if they don't work their families don't eat, forgo shelter or heating etc.

On the radio today there is a study that shows 25% of Australians miss meals to cover their power and other costs of basic living. These people often don't have a car or if they do it's a 15 to 20 year mess as they can't afford fuel and maintenance.  In country areas this often means they can't get to work, let alone find a better job.

Most of our skilled work is now being done overseas.  Our IT industry has gone from a world leading exporter of software and hardware designs to one that does everything in India, the Philippines or China, whichever is cheapest at the time.  This is only one example of work moved overseas, most of the backend of banking (the administation and checks you don't see ) is now done overseas - including mortgage paperwork.

The only growing industries at the moment are aged care, disability care and hospitality.  Most of these jobs are casual which prevents people taking out loans for houses, cars etc (and lots of these are now visiting several clients in their homes per day while only being paid for client facing time no allowances for travel time so if your car isn't reliable you can't work effectively)
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Just momentarily going back to Don's love of all things Tesla.......

I wonder how he would have coped with Robert Stephenson back in the day Razz
bingley hall
I've got a lot of sympathy for the Luddites, those flax mills were destroying good old-fashioned skills honed over the centuries Wink
this is where the American system fails, they have large numbers of people where both partners working can't cover the costs of living as their wages are so low, think janitors, cleaners, factory workers etc. Their retail and hospitality workers rely on tips to make ends meet - often their wages barely cover their uniform costs. Should people be working this hard to be in poverty? These people are too busy working to make ends meet to be able to take the time out to do training etc to improve themselves as if they don't work their families don't eat, forgo shelter or heating etc.
hardworkingman
Wasn't that the aim of Hawke and Keating though to Howard - free-wheeling capitalism where the poor are free to fall even further? Let's face it, Menzies was a welfare queen in comparison to today's mob; he introduced lots of socialist measures like PBS, a proper system of child endowment and basically founded the Aussie welfare system. Look at the current neo-cons like Georgina Downer who want to tear our health and welfare systems down in their entirety.

Scary to think that blow-in might have a chance of getting into parliament - I sincerely hope the people of Mayo have better sense in the coming by-election.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Just momentarily going back to Don's love of all things Tesla.......

I wonder how he would have coped with Robert Stephenson back in the day Razz
I've got a lot of sympathy for the Luddites, those flax mills were destroying good old-fashioned skills honed over the centuries Wink
this is where the American system fails, they have large numbers of people where both partners working can't cover the costs of living as their wages are so low, think janitors, cleaners, factory workers etc. Their retail and hospitality workers rely on tips to make ends meet - often their wages barely cover their uniform costs. Should people be working this hard to be in poverty? These people are too busy working to make ends meet to be able to take the time out to do training etc to improve themselves as if they don't work their families don't eat, forgo shelter or heating etc.
Wasn't that the aim of Hawke and Keating though to Howard - free-wheeling capitalism where the poor are free to fall even further? Let's face it, Menzies was a welfare queen in comparison to today's mob; he introduced lots of socialist measures like PBS, a proper system of child endowment and basically founded the Aussie welfare system. Look at the current neo-cons like Georgina Downer who want to tear our health and welfare systems down in their entirety.

Scary to think that blow-in might have a chance of getting into parliament - I sincerely hope the people of Mayo have better sense in the coming by-election.
don_dunstan
An Actual 'Liberal' (economically moderate left) in the Liberal Party. These days we Call basic Welfare and Medicare 'Socialism' (I don't like people misusing the term socialism). WHY call Menzies a 'Socialist' when He Attempted to Ban The Communist Party of Australia and was a relatively socially Conservative Politician. I do admit when John Howard was doing a Documentary Series on Robert Menzies on the ABC that I laughed When Howard Praised his 'Socialist' Economic Practices.  Also Why I do not Post on this thread often    



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VomgZcEiNmM
  rxclass Junior Train Controller

Location: On the manual turntable at Marino turning an exquisite Rx class steam locomotive.
Just momentarily going back to Don's love of all things Tesla.......

I wonder how he would have coped with Robert Stephenson back in the day Razz
I've got a lot of sympathy for the Luddites, those flax mills were destroying good old-fashioned skills honed over the centuries Wink
this is where the American system fails, they have large numbers of people where both partners working can't cover the costs of living as their wages are so low, think janitors, cleaners, factory workers etc. Their retail and hospitality workers rely on tips to make ends meet - often their wages barely cover their uniform costs. Should people be working this hard to be in poverty? These people are too busy working to make ends meet to be able to take the time out to do training etc to improve themselves as if they don't work their families don't eat, forgo shelter or heating etc.
Wasn't that the aim of Hawke and Keating though to Howard - free-wheeling capitalism where the poor are free to fall even further? Let's face it, Menzies was a welfare queen in comparison to today's mob; he introduced lots of socialist measures like PBS, a proper system of child endowment and basically founded the Aussie welfare system. Look at the current neo-cons like Georgina Downer who want to tear our health and welfare systems down in their entirety.

Scary to think that blow-in might have a chance of getting into parliament - I sincerely hope the people of Mayo have better sense in the coming by-election.
don_dunstan
G'day all,

According to an article on food security published in 'The National Geographic' magazine, for the year 2016 (latest figures available), 63% of American food stamp recepitiants were FULL TIME workers on 40+ hours per week. They literally run out of money by the third week in the month.

America is a wealthy country full of very poor people.

Regards,
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
An Actual 'Liberal' (economically moderate left) in the Liberal Party. These days we Call basic Welfare and Medicare 'Socialism' (I don't like people misusing the term socialism). WHY call Menzies a 'Socialist' when He Attempted to Ban The Communist Party of Australia and was a relatively socially Conservative Politician. I do admit when John Howard was doing a Documentary Series on Robert Menzies on the ABC that I laughed When Howard Praised his 'Socialist' Economic Practices.
Dangersdan707
Everyone is allowed to have an opinion on things political - there's no necessarily right or wrong answers - but it's good to have some reasons to back up your opinions.

Menzies was overtly a conservative but his social policies were very much about reinforcing the welfare state and focused on enfranchising the working class by making home-ownership easier. It was largely a success - by the mid-sixties Australia had the highest home-ownership rates in the world. Compare him to the current crop of LNP politicians who don't give a damn about the un-affordability of housing.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
An Actual 'Liberal' (economically moderate left) in the Liberal Party. These days we Call basic Welfare and Medicare 'Socialism' (I don't like people misusing the term socialism). WHY call Menzies a 'Socialist' when He Attempted to Ban The Communist Party of Australia and was a relatively socially Conservative Politician. I do admit when John Howard was doing a Documentary Series on Robert Menzies on the ABC that I laughed When Howard Praised his 'Socialist' Economic Practices.
Everyone is allowed to have an opinion on things political - there's no necessarily right or wrong answers - but it's good to have some reasons to back up your opinions.

Menzies was overtly a conservative but his social policies were very much about reinforcing the welfare state and focused on enfranchising the working class by making home-ownership easier. It was largely a success - by the mid-sixties Australia had the highest home-ownership rates in the world. Compare him to the current crop of LNP politicians who don't give a damn about the un-affordability of housing.
don_dunstan
I do admit I Prefer His economic Policies from then to the Neoliberalism that the big 3 Parties have fully embraced. You are a very Informed man Don, however, I know my Ideology and their characteristics. Slavoj Zizek would say that I 'have been eating from the Trashcan of ideology' too much.

Also Socialism from the Dictionary.


socialism ˈsəʊʃəlɪz(ə)m noun [mass noun] a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.• policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.• (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.The term ‘socialism’ has been used to describe positions as far apart as anarchism, Soviet state Communism, and social democracy; however, it necessarily implies an opposition to the untrammelled workings of the economic market. The socialist parties that have arisen in most European countries from the late 19th century have generally tended towards social democracy.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Most of these jobs are casual which prevents people taking out loans for houses, cars etc (and lots of these are now visiting several clients in their homes per day while only being paid for client facing time no allowances for travel time so if your car isn't reliable you can't work effectively)
HardWorkingMan
sorry the bolded part is very much untrue and speaking from personal experience.

My first car loan was on a casual job at uni, I needed better car to get to a 16 week 3 day per week casual job at a smelter.

My first mortgage was on the same casual job at uni, 25h a week stuffing catalogues into newspapers in a recession.

No, I did not get parental or any other guarantees.

Banks place little value on full-time vs casual. They know most people work such jobs, ie casual, contract, self employed and hence look at your ongoing income and savings.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
For the socialists here, my dad sent me this.

All this evil capitalist money being imported.

Also one for Don the last line, between 1/4 and 1/3 of the immigrants are millionaires buying citizenship to get out of their own sh_thole home land.

Was in China for two weeks recently on business, visited industry in 5 cities (which are actually 1-2 hr out of cities as no Chinese city has heavy industry in it anymore, we could aspire to have this level of wealth!

TAKE 2 on this

Sydney is becoming one of the five wealthiest cities in the world

The wealth held by individuals in Sydney is growing so much the city will become one of the five wealthiest in the world in a decade.
The city has become has become one of the most sought-after destinations for the world’s super-rich.
Private wealth in Australia has grown 83% in the past decade to $US6.142 billion and is forecast to grow 70% to $US10.442 in the next 10 years.
Its number of rich residents is growing so fast that Sydney is expected to become of the five wealthiest cities in the world within the next 10 years, according to analysts at New World Wealth.
The others would be New York, Beijing, Tokyo and Shanghai. The current top five is: New York, London, Tokyo, San Francisco Bay area and Beijing.
The forecast is in a new report by AfrAsia Bank and New World Wealth which reviews the expected movement of wealth globally over the next 10 years.
Currently, Sydney ranks ninth in the world for private wealth held by individuals with a combined $US1 trillion.
"Sydney is one of the top financial centres in Asia and has become one of the most sought-after
destinations for the world’s super-rich due to its lifestyle, safety and climate," says the annual Global Wealth Migration Review.
"Major industries include financial services, real estate, IT, tourism, retail and media."
New York, the city with the most private wealth, has about $US3 trillion.
Total private wealth, that held by individuals, worldwide amounts to about $US215 trillion.
There are about 15.2 million high net wealth individuals (HNWI) in the world, each with net assets of $US1 million or more.
Australia currently sits at ninth in the world for private wealth:


I cannot post the table, but it shows this

Australia in 9th place is just behind Canada in Wealth at $6142B


In Australia, private wealth has grown 83% in the past decade to $US6.142 billion and is forecast to grow 70% to $US10.442 billion in the next ten years.
Mumbai is expected to be the fastest growing city in terms of wealth growth over the next 10 years.
However, Australia is very popular as a place for the rich to move to.
It was the top country worldwide for high net worth individuals in 2017, beating out its main rival the US for the third year running.
Popular places for them to move to in Australia included: Sydney, Melbourne, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Perth and Brisbane.
"Australia’s location makes it a better base for doing business in emerging Asian countries such as China, Japan, South Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore and Vietnam," says the Global Wealth Migration Review.
"Australia was recently rated as the safest country for women worldwide during our annual woman safety ratings. Australia is also a particularly safe country to raise children although some describe it as a nanny state with too many rules.
"Australia has lower inheritance taxes than the US."
About 95,000 millionaires migrated in 2017, compared to 82,000 in 2016 and 64,000 in 2015



  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Shane whatever you posted didn't work for some reason - it was all HTTP.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Shane whatever you posted didn't work for some reason - it was all HTTP.
don_dunstan
Ok whoops, Fixed now!
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Interesting to read the machinations behind the Italian elections have led to a Finance Minister opposed to leaving the Euro, despite the fact that there's some potential government members opposed to staying (Reuters):

Italy’s new populist government isn’t considering leaving the eurozone, the country’s economy minister insisted, dismissing financial markets’ rocky reaction to the euroskeptic coalition now in power as “normal questions that accompany political transition.”

Economy Minister Giovanni Tria told Italy’s national Corriere della Sera newspaper in an interview published Sunday that the “position of the government is clear-cut and unanimous. No plan to exit from the euro is being discussed.”

This is in stark contrast to the position of his predecessor - but how can you know that they're not actually planning to exit further on? They wouldn't want to panic the financial markets by calling their punches.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Shane, it's all very well to say that Australia is doing so well because there are millionaires flocking here from countries where their wealth is safer... that's a double-edged sword. Do you think they'd still be coming here if there was no health and welfare system? Where they had to live in compounds behind barbed wire like South Africa, Brazil and Mexico? The Anglosphere in general wouldn't be such a desirable place for rich people to flee if we diluted the rule of law and destroyed the health and welfare systems. If had the same problems of poverty and corruption as everywhere else then none of your international jet-setting millionaire elites would want to live here regardless of how pretty or resource rich it was.

And there's lots of evidence that we're becoming a poorer, more corrupt nation.

EDIT: Corruption pays well after all - (News.com.au)
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Shane, it's all very well to say that Australia is doing so well because there are millionaires flocking here from countries where their wealth is safer... that's a double-edged sword. Do you think they'd still be coming here if there was no health and welfare system? Where they had to live in compounds behind barbed wire like South Africa, Brazil and Mexico? The Anglosphere in general wouldn't be such a desirable place for rich people to flee if we diluted the rule of law and destroyed the health and welfare systems. If had the same problems of poverty and corruption as everywhere else then none of your international jet-setting millionaire elites would want to live here regardless of how pretty or resource rich it was.

And there's lots of evidence that we're becoming a poorer, more corrupt nation.

EDIT: Corruption pays well after all - (News.com.au)
don_dunstan
If you have more than a couple of million in your pocket and you are buying citizenship in another country to get away from your own crap hole country and/or govt or both and in many cases mostly a vision of trying to give your kids a better future. Do you really think a Medi-care card is a number one priority on their list, because of the ones I know thinking or have moved to Australia, its not!

As for the welfare, again, a few million in your pocket, kind of makes it hard to claim the health card!

Remember Australia's Private Health System is pretty good and well regarded, but its not always the best in the world especially for problems fairly rare where we simply don't have the population and if you have money for things fairly serious, you travel.  

In general, I haven't heard of too many problems from country's the have lots of rich people moving too. More often than not, they tend to have lower unemployment as most don't live as scrouge's, rather they want their toys and support services.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
If you have more than a couple of million in your pocket and you are buying citizenship in another country to get away from your own crap hole country and/or govt or both and in many cases mostly a vision of trying to give your kids a better future. Do you really think a Medi-care card is a number one priority on their list, because of the ones I know thinking or have moved to Australia, its not!
RTT_Rules
Rubbish! The education/health/welfare systems are a big attraction even for very wealthy migrants - they're liable to keep more of their money if they're not paying for those things. And again, rule of law, etc etc. Excellent for preserving your money but maybe not so good if Australia does actually sign an extradition treaty with China (as they've been insisting we do recently).

Australia is also a very attractive destination if you're a money launderer - very, very attractive. And perhaps not surprisingly our government is bending over backwards to keep things exactly as they are (ABC AM). Perhaps this is also a reason why we're attracting so many lovely millionaires from countries where they may have some legalities hanging over their acquired wealth?
As for the welfare, again, a few million in your pocket, kind of makes it hard to claim the health card!
RTT_Rules
Again - you're wrong. Why not have your millions of dollars AND claim welfare and Medicare like this gentleman did - ABC. Lots of millionaires would be attracted to Australia because our social services are top notch, bring in your parents on an almost-free parental visa and they can get Centrelink after a qualifying period - you don't even have to die on your own dime, the Commonwealth will look after you and your family if you hide your wealth well. Why not? Locally-bred millionaires have shown the way; they love the welfare and Medicare systems. Johnny Howard had to introduce a direct penalty in the form of the Medicare Levy Surcharge to try and convince rich people to stop using Medicare but it largely hasn't worked - many rich people still refuse to buy private health insurance because its such a poor product.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
In general, I haven't heard of too many problems from country's the have lots of rich people moving too. More often than not, they tend to have lower unemployment as most don't live as scrouge's, rather they want their toys and support services.
RTT_Rules
Shane - part of my problem with your observation is that you are not a qualified observer. And you're not basing your observations on any kind of data or direct experience with the health and welfare systems in Australia. Do you have any evidence that rich people don't access public health and welfare services?

And do you really think that people with money don't look for ways to continue saving it? Hell, I've known heaps of rich people who cleverly plan their money so they're still able to sit on their enormous piles of wealth into retirement and still access the welfare and Medicare systems at the same time. Why wouldn't wealthy migrants be doing the same thing?
  rxclass Junior Train Controller

Location: On the manual turntable at Marino turning an exquisite Rx class steam locomotive.
In general, I haven't heard of too many problems from country's the have lots of rich people moving too. More often than not, they tend to have lower unemployment as most don't live as scrouge's, rather they want their toys and support services.
Shane - part of my problem with your observation is that you are not a qualified observer. And you're not basing your observations on any kind of data or direct experience with the health and welfare systems in Australia. Do you have any evidence that rich people don't access public health and welfare services?

And do you really think that people with money don't look for ways to continue saving it? Hell, I've known heaps of rich people who cleverly plan their money so they're still able to sit on their enormous piles of wealth into retirement and still access the welfare and Medicare systems at the same time. Why wouldn't wealthy migrants be doing the same thing?
don_dunstan

G,day all,

A gentleman I know is retiring at 63 years of age with in excess of $900,000 in super. For the next 2.5 years he is drawing down approx $45,000 a year free of tax. Upon financial advise, just before pension age, he is transferring most of the remaining super into his wife's name as she is 9 years younger than him. As under pension age this amount is not counted as an asset by Centrelink. He will subsequently obtain the full age pension with all the fringe benefits. Under current rules they will have a problem when she reaches pension age, but that is in the future.

Don't tell me that the well off/wealthy do not try to obtain access to our welfare system if they can.

Regards,
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Don't tell me that the well off/wealthy do not try to obtain access to our welfare system if they can.
"rxclass"
If it's legal, who wouldn't?  The bloke's paid his taxes for years, now he's getting some back.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Don't tell me that the well off/wealthy do not try to obtain access to our welfare system if they can.
If it's legal, who wouldn't?  The bloke's paid his taxes for years, now he's getting some back.
Valvegear
Just out of curiosity are you doing the same thing?

Of course people try and maximise the situation as much as they can for themselves but personally I think by the time I retire all these perks will be gone because the nation simply won't be able to afford it. Using RX's example (above), is it really fair that someone sitting on a million dollars in cash can shuffle money around so that he can get the full aged pension entitlement for several years? People being able to retire with Centrelink/Medicare entitlements AND huge amounts of money has to cost the economy and the government quite a bit; basically we're supporting a very rapidly growing cohort of the population (aged pension claimants are at 2.2 million and growing very fast) but they're not actually working so there's a cost to the government in supporting them AND their money.

The compulsory superannuation system was supposedly going to take care of this but 25 years on all its done is increase the expectations that people have about retirement - that they should be entitled to a lifestyle exactly the same as the one when they were working AND they get to keep their money and assets to pass on to their children.

It's not sustainable.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Don't tell me that the well off/wealthy do not try to obtain access to our welfare system if they can.
If it's legal, who wouldn't?  The bloke's paid his taxes for years, now he's getting some back.
Valvegear
If I were eligible for any access to benefits from Centrelink etc, trust me I'd have my hand out.
Creative accounting isn't illegal. Kerry Packer said anyone who doesn't try to minimise their tax liability......
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Just out of curiosity are you doing the same thing?
"don_dunstan"
Not that it's any of your business, but no, I'm not. I work four days a week to keep myself active.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Sounds like some Tesla employees might need welfare:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-13/elon-musk-sacks-9pc-tesla-staff-wall-st-trump-kim-summit/9863178

In the USA unemployment benefits vary wildly state-to-state.  California is fairly generous apparently.
  locojoe67 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Gen X purgatory/urban Joh-land
California is essentially broke, and is raising taxes to get by. The state has a net population loss as tax slaves seek some relief in nearby states.

To paraphrase a much quoted line, eventually Cali will run out of working stiffs to tax. They're a bankruptcy waiting to happen. The state pension fund Calpers might be one of the first entities to roll over.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

California is essentially broke, and is raising taxes to get by. The state has a net population loss as tax slaves seek some relief in nearby states.

To paraphrase a much quoted line, eventually Cali will run out of working stiffs to tax. They're a bankruptcy waiting to happen. The state pension fund Calpers might be one of the first entities to roll over.
locojoe67
That's been the case for about 10 years.

It's not as stuffed as Illinois or New Jersey though:
https://www.mercatus.org/statefiscalrankings
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Reserve Bank governor Phil Lowe gave a speech today to the Australian Industry Group that demonstrated he clearly has no idea about the relationship between government policy and low wages (AFR):

These various factors [under-employment, under-utilisation] go some way to explaining the low wages growth over recent times. When there is spare capacity in the labour market, it is understandable that wages growth is slow.

You dolt, it's deliberate government policy that's depressing wages. They can't rise because they've been engineered not to.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.