Why doesn't Bondi Beach have a train station?

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 05 May 2018 21:22
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

24,000 passengers per hour is still not enough capacity for the south east to relieve congestion. It really needs double that which is why a metro is also needed to the area.
24,000 per hour is 400 people per minute. Assuming the buses are carrying all this, then at say 80 people per bus (open to correction), then thats 5 buses a minute or one every 12 sec on ANZAC Pde.

Could the city streets now cope with a bus from SE alone + all the others every 12 sec? Remember it takes a few seconds just for one bus to pass, so there would be roughly a 8-9 sec gap between each bus, without stopping for lights and I doubt its that high.

Obviously not all the 24,000 now are currently in buses, so what will happen as LR takes over from buses, people will explore the LR options and if it gets to crowded, then cars will carry the rest plus what ever extra buses the govt runs.

What won't happen is the Transport Minister going to the cabinet in the next decade and saying I need another $2B to deal with the "overflow" of the LR to build a Metro or extend the ESR. They may however get more trams and some more buses. If the ALP govt is the govt of the day, certainly expect the big finger to be raised to the SE and their focus shift to the west where the real PT issues are.
RTT_Rules
There are way more then 5 buses a minute along anzac parade. You can get 5 buses within 5 seconds in peak hour. yes all 24,000 are in buses and probably even more at the moment.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
24,000 passengers per hour is still not enough capacity for the south east to relieve congestion. It really needs double that which is why a metro is also needed to the area.
24,000 per hour is 400 people per minute. Assuming the buses are carrying all this, then at say 80 people per bus (open to correction), then thats 5 buses a minute or one every 12 sec on ANZAC Pde.

Could the city streets now cope with a bus from SE alone + all the others every 12 sec? Remember it takes a few seconds just for one bus to pass, so there would be roughly a 8-9 sec gap between each bus, without stopping for lights and I doubt its that high.

Obviously not all the 24,000 now are currently in buses, so what will happen as LR takes over from buses, people will explore the LR options and if it gets to crowded, then cars will carry the rest plus what ever extra buses the govt runs.

What won't happen is the Transport Minister going to the cabinet in the next decade and saying I need another $2B to deal with the "overflow" of the LR to build a Metro or extend the ESR. They may however get more trams and some more buses. If the ALP govt is the govt of the day, certainly expect the big finger to be raised to the SE and their focus shift to the west where the real PT issues are.
There are way more then 5 buses a minute along anzac parade. You can get 5 buses within 5 seconds in peak hour. yes all 24,000 are in buses and probably even more at the moment.
simstrain
Ok I'll take your word for it. After the tram opens you may still have 1/min, but you won't have a railway.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The light rail will be great for getting to central from the south east but there will still be buses heading through. This route map will show you how many bus services run along anzac parade.

Metro west will be extended to the south east in the future as well. It won't be going to bondi beach or heading north.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

Maybe instead of a metro, we could lash 4 trams together.  And if we grade separate the track, we could run 30 of those an hour./s
djf01

Why stop at 4?. The digital control system on a modern tram should be able to cope with 6, 8, even 10 coupled!
The limit is when the leading car is stopped at an intersection you don't want the other end of the train blocking the previous intersection/crossing.

At which point, it's why did we blow 2bn on this surface railway ?, that should have been put to (an admittedly much more expensive) high capacity underground railway that actually has the capacity to absorb the loading on offer.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Maybe instead of a metro, we could lash 4 trams together.  And if we grade separate the track, we could run 30 of those an hour./s

Why stop at 4?. The digital control system on a modern tram should be able to cope with 6, 8, even 10 coupled!
The limit is when the leading car is stopped at an intersection you don't want the other end of the train blocking the previous intersection/crossing.

At which point, it's why did we blow 2bn on this surface railway ?, that should have been put to (an admittedly much more expensive) high capacity underground railway that actually has the capacity to absorb the loading on offer.
Matthew

I think gladys is starting to wish she built a metro instead of a light rail to the south east.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Now that we can agree on Sims. Extension of ESR railway would have been sane price, technically easy, less political backlash and more likely done on time and the final project only had a small incremental impact on PT operating costs.

I suspect this LR project may slow down future projects unless they are off main road corridors.
  ivahri Train Controller

My 2 cents?

Bondi Junction- Bondi Beach- Dover Heights- Manly and on to Dee Why....

Yes it would cost a motsa but it would create a more sensible rail connection between the northern beaches and the CBD without feeding traffic unnecessarily through North Sydney (and Wynyard).



Richard
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dover Heights to Manly (not via Wynyard and North Sydney) has a small obstacle called Sydney Heads in the way.
Are you building a bridge or digging a tunnel?
  ivahri Train Controller

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dover Heights to Manly (not via Wynyard and North Sydney) has a small obstacle called Sydney Heads in the way.
Are you building a bridge or digging a tunnel?
Valvegear
It would all be in tunnel...
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dover Heights to Manly (not via Wynyard and North Sydney) has a small obstacle called Sydney Heads in the way.
Are you building a bridge or digging a tunnel?
It would all be in tunnel...
ivahri
A few expensive option to go via a corridor that is already over 60% uterlised and hence limits the numbers from the north side, also ignoring the fact that many on Nth Beaches actually want to go to Nth Sydney/Chatswood corridor for Work
  ivahri Train Controller

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dover Heights to Manly (not via Wynyard and North Sydney) has a small obstacle called Sydney Heads in the way.
Are you building a bridge or digging a tunnel?
It would all be in tunnel...
A few expensive option to go via a corridor that is already over 60% uterlised and hence limits the numbers from the north side, also ignoring the fact that many on Nth Beaches actually want to go to Nth Sydney/Chatswood corridor for Work
RTT_Rules
No question that it is an expensive option but then so is tunneling from North Sydney under the Spit Bridge... the advantage of the Bondi Junction extension would be that it would provide an alternative to North Sydney and then through Wynyard. Those who wish to travel to Chatswood would do so as they do now- bus or car.

60% utilised is not a major issue- services to Dee Why would be extensions of existing Bondi Junct-Cronulla/Illawarra services.

As I said... my 2 cents worth... but tunneling is now a cost effective approach.


Richard
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dover Heights to Manly (not via Wynyard and North Sydney) has a small obstacle called Sydney Heads in the way.
Are you building a bridge or digging a tunnel?
It would all be in tunnel...
A few expensive option to go via a corridor that is already over 60% uterlised and hence limits the numbers from the north side, also ignoring the fact that many on Nth Beaches actually want to go to Nth Sydney/Chatswood corridor for Work
No question that it is an expensive option but then so is tunneling from North Sydney under the Spit Bridge... the advantage of the Bondi Junction extension would be that it would provide an alternative to North Sydney and then through Wynyard. Those who wish to travel to Chatswood would do so as they do now- bus or car.

60% utilised is not a major issue- services to Dee Why would be extensions of existing Bondi Junct-Cronulla/Illawarra services.

As I said... my 2 cents worth... but tunneling is now a cost effective approach.


Richard
ivahri
Just putting the following on the table fYI
- Its 1-2 km longer from Manly to Bondi Junction than to Wynyard via North Sydney and Mosman, ie going via Bondi would add 15min or so

- The line via Mosman would run via the population base of Mosman area and Nth Sydney CBD, going between the heads is expensive with no population in between.

- The line via Bondi already has a costly Achilles heel in that corridor to the city is already at 60% capacity thus severely limiting growth and future capacity, thus you are paying alot of money to cross the harbor that can never be fully uterlised. Also noting that simply extending the line through to Bondi Beach and beyond may see ridership rise by X amount which effectively limits traffic from Manly even further.

- The Mosman corridor is a natural flow, ie people already go that way. Few in Manly would be doing business in Bondi area or VV. ie Nth Syd to Chatswood and the ECRL is a work destination, Bondi is not.

My 2.2c worth is to tunnel from North Beaches, say starting at Dee Why, Curl Curl, Freshwater, Fairlight, Balgowlah, The Spit, Mosman, Neutral Bay, Nth Sydney, then cross the harbour, Underground Circular Quay, St James station (existing unused platforms), Pitt Street (extra two platforms), Central (extra two platforms), then become the Western Metro.  A total distance of about 15-16km, built in phases over 10 years.

If the grade to St James is too steep (likely), then come up just west of the Sydney Harbour Tounnel and have the Quay station at eastern end of Circular Quay and if required build a set of new platforms between existing station at St James/Martin Place.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Now that we can agree on Sims. Extension of ESR railway would have been sane price, technically easy, less political backlash and more likely done on time and the final project only had a small incremental impact on PT operating costs.

I suspect this LR project may slow down future projects unless they are off main road corridors.
RTT_Rules

Not really as this government is about to announce a $3.8 billion surplus and surpluses for the next 4 years. westconnex will be open before the next election and a slew of other projects including new hospitals and schools are under construction.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Now that we can agree on Sims. Extension of ESR railway would have been sane price, technically easy, less political backlash and more likely done on time and the final project only had a small incremental impact on PT operating costs.

I suspect this LR project may slow down future projects unless they are off main road corridors.

Not really as this government is about to announce a $3.8 billion surplus and surpluses for the next 4 years. westconnex will be open before the next election and a slew of other projects including new hospitals and schools are under construction.
simstrain
The already cashed up NSW govt has proven that money is no object to screwing up a CBD LR project to the point that next time the govt tells the voters they want to build a LR line in a CBD or likely anywhere the voters will tell the govt to get @#$%ed. I suspect the voters will take some time to get over this project.

Had this been a HR project ESR extension, it would be open later this year to the cheers of the SE corner and many others, maybe even the odd ALP voter and the LNP would have had the bragging rights to say we finished what the ALP couldn't and the govt could have gone to the election with both this in their pocket and potential option to extend the line further by another 1-2 stops. Oh what could have been...
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

To be honest the issues with the LR in Sydney aren't anywhere near as bad as being made out. Sure there is a financial scuffle happening but the go slow was a no show and work is moving forward quite decently.


When you see images of all the work and the scale of the works being undertaken in them you will understand why it is having issues. So much crap was found and everytime some unknown cable was found work had to be stopped and moved elsewhere.

A significant amount of track has been laid and alstom X05's are testing along the network where possible. So there is no concern long term and once the infrastructure is running I suspect the frowns will turn upside down.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

you are correct in that if the esr was extended it is probably already operating.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
To be honest the issues with the LR in Sydney aren't anywhere near as bad as being made out. Sure there is a financial scuffle happening but the go slow was a no show and work is moving forward quite decently.


When you see images of all the work and the scale of the works being undertaken in them you will understand why it is having issues. So much crap was found and everytime some unknown cable was found work had to be stopped and moved elsewhere.

A significant amount of track has been laid and alstom X05's are testing along the network where possible. So there is no concern long term and once the infrastructure is running I suspect the frowns will turn upside down.
simstrain
Problem is it maybe over stated, but its getting ALOT of bad press, longer it goes more people hear, they more they believe.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Gold coast light rail also got bad press and look at it now.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Gold coast light rail also got bad press and look at it now.
simstrain
Yeah, a bit different. I'm sure Sydney will get over it, but alot more people affected in our largest city.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

A lot more people to benefit as well.

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