$3 billion high-speed underground train will go from Parramatta to the city in less than 20 minutes

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 19 Jun 2018 15:55
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Why do you want to add a few hundred million to teh cost of something for no reason?

You mean like extending the metro to Liverpool? Smile
djf01
Haha, yes and no.

The Liverpool extension of the Bankstown Metro is valid if it was direct as it would provide a more direct faster run into the city, after all alot of money spent converting the Bankstown line for nothing more than increase in services. The line will probably be running under capacity and hence it should be used to capture the population growth in the mid south west.

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  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Haha, yes and no.

The Liverpool extension of the Bankstown Metro is valid if it was direct as it would provide a more direct faster run into the city, after all alot of money spent converting the Bankstown line for nothing more than increase in services. The line will probably be running under capacity and hence it should be used to capture the population growth in the mid south west.
RTT_Rules

Liverpool already has 3 rail routes to the city.  None of them are fast.  Only the most direct of the routes lacks a through service.  The reason they are slow is that all 3 need to be serviced, so no expresses.

If the metro gets extended to Liverpool, it won't be faster (unless the Metro is going to have multiple stopping patterns and amplification to allow overtaking).  As as others have pointed out, it'll probably end up being the least direct of the routes too.

IMHO Metro to Liverpool - much like Metro to Bankstown - is a "solution" in search of a problem.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


No it doesn't. Metro must be completely separated from the regular rail line and so it must dive under the existing lines or the existing tracks must dive under it.Its a single non-switchable Diamond crossing used by how many freights a day in operating hours of the Metro?

Who says?
What is the technical reason?
What is the safety reasons?

As you said, its out of curfew.

Why do you want to add a few hundred million to teh cost of something for no reason?
RTT_Rules

I'm not. I'm putting a kybosh to your plan on running the metro to regent's park along the surface corridor without segregation from the existing sydney trains network. The metro crossing a sydney trains line is a huge no go for operational and safety reasons regardless of if it can be technically done. The SSFL was put under the bankstown line at sefton to separate that lines freight from the sydney trains network. In what world wouldn't the current government do exactly the same thing for it's metro which it is selling as segregated to the public of Sydney.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Haha, yes and no.

The Liverpool extension of the Bankstown Metro is valid if it was direct as it would provide a more direct faster run into the city, after all alot of money spent converting the Bankstown line for nothing more than increase in services. The line will probably be running under capacity and hence it should be used to capture the population growth in the mid south west.

Liverpool already has 3 rail routes to the city.  None of them are fast.  Only the most direct of the routes lacks a through service.  The reason they are slow is that all 3 need to be serviced, so no expresses.

If the metro gets extended to Liverpool, it won't be faster (unless the Metro is going to have multiple stopping patterns and amplification to allow overtaking).  As as others have pointed out, it'll probably end up being the least direct of the routes too.

IMHO Metro to Liverpool - much like Metro to Bankstown - is a "solution" in search of a problem.
djf01

I agree djf. My solution has always been to put the metro underground to bankstown and then remove the surface stations between sydenham and bankstown from the sydney trains network to allow a faster 35-45 minute service to/from liverpool. Yes it will be more expensive but it creates more flexibility and capacity.

It solves the issues with the curved platforms and it allows the via granville service to stop at newtown all day which it may as well do now because these services are slow behind the all stations service and always running 5 minutes late already. The Western metro needs to have 4 tracks all the way to blacktown to make any sort of inroad into the T1 congestion issue.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

I'm not. I'm putting a kybosh to your plan on running the metro to regent's park along the surface corridor without segregation from the existing sydney trains network. The metro crossing a sydney trains line is a huge no go for operational and safety reasons regardless of if it can be technically done. The SSFL was put under the bankstown line at sefton to separate that lines freight from the sydney trains network. In what world wouldn't the current government do exactly the same thing for it's metro which it is selling as segregated to the public of Sydney.
simstrain
C'mon Sim's, what the hell do you think separates a DD from a freight train, A Give Way sign, time to open your eyes a bit. Of course the technology exists, its there now!

Also note, how many freights a day are really talking about in commuter operational hours?

You have taken the "segregation" term out of context.

The SSFL was sunk because it takes 4min for a 1500m freight train to cross that intersection with a safety buffer either side. There is a DD every 5min, on average so doesn't leave much to play with and hence to be removed from the curfew, grade separation was required.

Alternatively the Metro could run to Sefton under the same concept as proposed before. Might actually be cheaper than Reagents Park.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

I agree djf. My solution has always been to put the metro underground to bankstown and then remove the surface stations between sydenham and bankstown from the sydney trains network to allow a faster 35-45 minute service to/from liverpool. Yes it will be more expensive but it creates more flexibility and capacity.

It solves the issues with the curved platforms and it allows the via granville service to stop at newtown all day which it may as well do now because these services are slow behind the all stations service and always running 5 minutes late already. The Western metro needs to have 4 tracks all the way to blacktown to make any sort of inroad into the T1 congestion issue.
simstrain
Unfortunately 12km of underground railway to replace existing surface is very expensive for minimal gain, yes save a few minutes but there would have had to be station rationalisation as no way could you justify the cost based on current users.

A cheaper and more likely more attractive alternative would have been to run the Metro mostly UG to Homebush replacing the most of the surface stations with some rationalisation thereby and removing the bottle neck limiting capacity to 12 t/h and slowly SW services and inefficiency of the inner west.

A branch line could run off towards Five-Dock and across to Gladsville (this time yes I means Gladsville), an towards Top Ryde.


Maybe eventually the Metro would run as far as Lidcombe and thus mitigate the need for the Western Express Metro. (same tunnel distance as running to Bankstown). A new tunnel from Redfern to St James to terminate trains from say Inner West or West to enable higher traffic flows would still ultimately be required, but delayed until 2030.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Haha, yes and no.

The Liverpool extension of the Bankstown Metro is valid if it was direct as it would provide a more direct faster run into the city, after all alot of money spent converting the Bankstown line for nothing more than increase in services. The line will probably be running under capacity and hence it should be used to capture the population growth in the mid south west.

Liverpool already has 3 rail routes to the city.  None of them are fast.  Only the most direct of the routes lacks a through service.  The reason they are slow is that all 3 need to be serviced, so no expresses.

If the metro gets extended to Liverpool, it won't be faster (unless the Metro is going to have multiple stopping patterns and amplification to allow overtaking).  As as others have pointed out, it'll probably end up being the least direct of the routes too.

IMHO Metro to Liverpool - much like Metro to Bankstown - is a "solution" in search of a problem.
djf01
If the Metro did run to Liverpool, direct, rather on current corridor from Bankstown, I think in peak a stop/skip pattern on the Bankstown line would warranted.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


I'm not. I'm putting a kybosh to your plan on running the metro to regent's park along the surface corridor without segregation from the existing sydney trains network. The metro crossing a sydney trains line is a huge no go for operational and safety reasons regardless of if it can be technically done. The SSFL was put under the bankstown line at sefton to separate that lines freight from the sydney trains network. In what world wouldn't the current government do exactly the same thing for it's metro which it is selling as segregated to the public of Sydney.C'mon Sim's, what the hell do you think separates a DD from a freight train, A Give Way sign, time to open your eyes a bit. Of course the technology exists, its there now!

Also note, how many freights a day are really talking about in commuter operational hours?

You have taken the "segregation" term out of context.

The SSFL was sunk because it takes 4min for a 1500m freight train to cross that intersection with a safety buffer either side. There is a DD every 5min, on average so doesn't leave much to play with and hence to be removed from the curfew, grade separation was required.

Alternatively the Metro could run to Sefton under the same concept as proposed before. Might actually be cheaper than Reagents Park.
RTT_Rules

The bankstown line currently has a train every 7.5 minutes (8tph) in peak hour and every 10 minutes (6tph) in non peak.
If you run the metro to regents park then it is going to have a train every 4 minutes at 15 trains per hour leaving no room at all for a 1500 metre freight train and so yes your idea is debunked.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

The bankstown line currently has a train every 7.5 minutes (8tph) in peak hour and every 10 minutes (6tph) in non peak.
If you run the metro to regents park then it is going to have a train every 4 minutes at 15 trains per hour leaving no room at all for a 1500 metre freight train and so yes your idea is debunked.
simstrain
Do you deliberately ignore what was previously posted?

I said that the junction currently services two branches, the Metro extension would reduce this to one and that even then a frequency no greater than 10min is required with other services terminated at Bankstown.

Alternatively you can connect to Sefton although, Reagents Park is likely the better choice.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

If the Metro did run to Liverpool, direct, rather on current corridor from Bankstown, I think in peak a stop/skip pattern on the Bankstown line would warranted.
RTT_Rules

Which says it all really.  If skip stopping is warranted, Metro is clearly the wrong mode.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If the Metro did run to Liverpool, direct, rather on current corridor from Bankstown, I think in peak a stop/skip pattern on the Bankstown line would warranted.

Which says it all really.  If skip stopping is warranted, Metro is clearly the wrong mode.
djf01
From posts by others in the past, I don't think it would be the first Metro to operate this way. It was just a suggestion but in reality only saves 2-3min so probably not worth considering.

Skip-Stop operations however should be considered for greater Sydney in peak as its not just a few min saved on each trip, but also energy and wear and tear of the train.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

When I first heard this proposal I thought it was 'Pie in the Sky' BUT it is the ONLY way they will EVER get a high speed train to be able to run between Sydney and Parramatta.
However I see its already been 'White Anted' away by having stops between the 2 locations.
Give it a bit more time and these will increase so by the time the final drawings are made, there will be a stop very 500 metres between Sydney and Parramatta.
gordon_s1942
The only way to do Metro west for under $3b is to do it in competent rock with only one intermediate launch site/station resulting in a 12 minute ride and allowing surface rail to be all stops serviced by many buses with routes between the existing stations and ferry stops.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


The bankstown line currently has a train every 7.5 minutes (8tph) in peak hour and every 10 minutes (6tph) in non peak.
If you run the metro to regents park then it is going to have a train every 4 minutes at 15 trains per hour leaving no room at all for a 1500 metre freight train and so yes your idea is debunked.Do you deliberately ignore what was previously posted?

I said that the junction currently services two branches, the Metro extension would reduce this to one and that even then a frequency no greater than 10min is required with other services terminated at Bankstown.

Alternatively you can connect to Sefton although, Reagents Park is likely the better choice.
RTT_Rules

Yes I did because it isn't going to happen unless it is grade separated regardless of if it is technically possible or not. The Sydney metro is never going to have a flat cross with the sydney trains or a freight network.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
When I first heard this proposal I thought it was 'Pie in the Sky' BUT it is the ONLY way they will EVER get a high speed train to be able to run between Sydney and Parramatta.
However I see its already been 'White Anted' away by having stops between the 2 locations.
Give it a bit more time and these will increase so by the time the final drawings are made, there will be a stop very 500 metres between Sydney and Parramatta.
The only way to do Metro west for under $3b is to do it in competent rock with only one intermediate launch site/station resulting in a 12 minute ride and allowing surface rail to be all stops serviced by many buses with routes between the existing stations and ferry stops.
eddyb
The $3B is the starting money, it will cost around $10B or more. I believe the feds maybe also throwing some money at them as part of Airport link. Sim's is usually in the know on this sort of stuff.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

The bankstown line currently has a train every 7.5 minutes (8tph) in peak hour and every 10 minutes (6tph) in non peak.
If you run the metro to regents park then it is going to have a train every 4 minutes at 15 trains per hour leaving no room at all for a 1500 metre freight train and so yes your idea is debunked.Do you deliberately ignore what was previously posted?

I said that the junction currently services two branches, the Metro extension would reduce this to one and that even then a frequency no greater than 10min is required with other services terminated at Bankstown.

Alternatively you can connect to Sefton although, Reagents Park is likely the better choice.
Yes I did because it isn't going to happen unless it is grade separated regardless of if it is technically possible or not. The Sydney metro is never going to have a flat cross with the sydney trains or a freight network.
simstrain
Didn't say Sydney trains, just a lessor used freight line.

Would seem silly to completely rule out such a crossing based on basically, well umm, nothing, No safety issue, no technical issue.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

The $3B is the starting money, it will cost around $10B or more. I believe the feds maybe also throwing some money at them as part of Airport link. Sim's is usually in the know on this sort of stuff.
RTT_Rules
If you avoid the many stations and the tricky Darling harbour crossing it could easily be done in competent rock with just one intermediate launch site/station for $3b giving a 12 minute ride and winning the election.

As surface rail can then be all stops many buses can take people to existing stations or ferries and if central has a 20 metre wide east/west metro platform/concourse https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/26c42c60-04d9-42ad-8bc4-a00f424f1a33/Sydney-central-station with a TBM launched from the airport the trip from Mascot airport to Parramatta could be done within half an hour.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The $3B is the starting money, it will cost around $10B or more. I believe the feds maybe also throwing some money at them as part of Airport link. Sim's is usually in the know on this sort of stuff.
If you avoid the many stations and the tricky Darling harbour crossing it could easily be done in competent rock with just one intermediate launch site/station for $3b giving a 12 minute ride and winning the election.

As surface rail can then be all stops many buses can take people to existing stations or ferries and if central has a 20 metre wide east/west metro platform/concourse https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/26c42c60-04d9-42ad-8bc4-a00f424f1a33/Sydney-central-station with a TBM launched from the airport the trip from Mascot airport to Parramatta could be done within half an hour.
eddyb
interesting, but no way you can get a rail line from city to Parramatta UG the whole way for $3B.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

interesting, but no way you can get a rail line from city to Parramatta UG the whole way for $3B.
RTT_Rule
Shane
It depends a lot on the difficulty and risk in my opinion because the stage two tunnels cost two and a half times that of stage one and I am sure this is not just inflation.

At stage one cost of $1.15b for 15 kilometres of twin tunnels in competent rock I suggest the 20 kilometers Central to Parramatta would only cost $2b leaving $1b for fit out and trains.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
It depends a lot on the difficulty and risk in my opinion because the stage two tunnels cost two and a half times that of stage one and I am sure this is not just inflation.

At stage one cost of $1.15b for 15 kilometres of twin tunnels in competent rock I suggest the 20 kilometers Central to Parramatta would only cost $2b leaving $1b for fit out and trains.
"eddyb"


Welcome to Eddy's Costing Fairyland. We had it in another forum some time ago, and here we go again. It's very simple methodology - pull numbers out of the sky and never, never post any detailed costings, figures or anything remotely like sources of information.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller



Welcome to Eddy's Costing Fairyland. We had it in another forum some time ago, and here we go again. It's very simple methodology - pull numbers out of the sky and never, never post any detailed costings, figures or anything remotely like sources of information.
Valvegear

https://www.railexpress.com.au/2-8bn-sydney-metro-tunnel-contract-awarded/
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Didn't say Sydney trains, just a lessor used freight line.

Would seem silly to completely rule out such a crossing based on basically, well umm, nothing, No safety issue, no technical issue.
RTT_Rules

It makes complete sense since it would be a safety issue and there is no technical reason to not grade separate. I conferred with some metro people I know and they laughed at such an idea as it defeats the purpose of what is trying to be achieved by the metro system which is to be 100% segregated from anything else.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Didn't say Sydney trains, just a lessor used freight line.

Would seem silly to completely rule out such a crossing based on basically, well umm, nothing, No safety issue, no technical issue.

It makes complete sense since it would be a safety issue and there is no technical reason to not grade separate. I conferred with some metro people I know and they laughed at such an idea as it defeats the purpose of what is trying to be achieved by the metro system which is to be 100% segregated from anything else.
simstrain
Again, what safety issue?

The technical reason not to grade separate is that you already have one train in a cutting below and a bridge above, otherwise I would not have mentioned it.

The alternative is now a half baked conversion of the Bankstown line with a screwed up connection with the existing DD network at Bankstown that will be more costly to timetable than now. They can laugh all they like (if indeed you actually discussed this), but it just goes to show the lack of thinking on their side.

While I agree the DD and Metro network are incompatible and even sharing same track with freights, but a LX with a lightly used freight line on a lightly used part of the Metro section is hardly the opposite of segregation.

Anyway, again I said they could go to Sefton instead, but not the best of the two options.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

RTT_Rules

Shane
As some people are too scared to use a walkway with a wheelchair php https://www.tunneltalk.com/TunnelTECH-May2018-Evacuating-along-elevated-platforms-in-rail-tunnels.php perhaps everything can be made non flammable with exits either end of the metro and that then allows room for a 5 metre wide carriage https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/331a49f3-7949-495b-b3d9-e675231588d6/5-metre-wide-carriage
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Nope , no fish tanks on the Freight Line . Recipe for lateness ...
Freight line needs double stacking clearances and those original two story 46cl pantygraphs won't fit Milemonums .
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Nope , no fish tanks on the Freight Line . Recipe for lateness ...
Freight line needs double stacking clearances and those original two story 46cl pantygraphs won't fit Milemonums .
BDA
This section of line we are talking about will never have DS and the freight is already using a much longer common section of suburban line. What we are talking about is merely a crossing which the suburbans do now, but at a higher frequency.

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