Duplication from South Geelong - Waurn Ponds?

 
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
When you look at the Google satellite view, there is a strip (probably set as a linear park at present) between the new houses at Armstrong Creek which seems to line up with the view in the document.

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  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
That’s a link to your hard drive Nightfire - can’t access it even if I really wanted to!

Try this:

https://www.surfcoast.vic.gov.au/files/assets/public/01-about-us/council/council-meetings-and-minutes/council-agendas-amp-minutes/2017/27-june/item-3.3-appendix-1-torquay-transport-rail-link-report-aecom-2014.pdf
potatoinmymouth
Really interesting PIMM, thanks, I can't believe that they propose(d) running Torquay as a shuttle service, I would have assumed they would have used it as a start / finish point for every 2nd / 3rd / 4th Geelong service as demand required.

V/Line seem to have a total aversion to shuttles (Arrarat > Ballarat SG, Swan Hill > Bendigo etc etc) so I didn't think they would introduce them on a new service - a harbinger of things to come?

With full duplication to Waurn Ponds now on the cards I wonder if this will change their plans at all.

BG
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
BG

Your concern is not how I read page 13. A full connect is the ultimate plan.

The document was in 2014. They even call it "Grovedale" station. The plan pre-supposes RRL and duplication to Waurn Ponds. Those are now reality (nearly).

The phased approach looks like consultant padding the document. The more modern approach, LXRA,  is bite the bullet and do it all.

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Really interesting PIMM, thanks, I can't believe that they propose(d) running Torquay as a shuttle service, I would have assumed they would have used it as a start / finish point for every 2nd / 3rd / 4th Geelong service as demand required.

V/Line seem to have a total aversion to shuttles (Arrarat > Ballarat SG, Swan Hill > Bendigo etc etc) so I didn't think they would introduce them on a new service - a harbinger of things to come?
BrentonGolding


Couple of points here - this report was led by PTV in their heyday (same era as Metro Rail plan and Geelong-Ballarat-Bendigo report - there was some genuine forward thinking going on for a while there) so V/Line's prejudices wouldn't have been given too much stock, I suspect. Anyway, the Coalition was trying to flog V/Line off at this point.

Secondly, there's a great article floating around somewhere about the problems with branch lines - I can't find it right now but you can work it out yourself pretty well. If you have 10 min freq on the Geelong corridor and you decide to split it at the end, you end up with substantially inferior service and perception of service at the extremities, and you basically eliminate the possibility of someone trying to get from one branch to another.

I've long thought that some out-of-the-box investment would be a fleet of super-light, Sprinter-esque railcars to deploy flexibly on new and reopened branchlines like this one. Easy to scale service levels as required (or trial new services without having to commit to mainline paths), maintain them at a hub in, say Ballarat, and transfer them through the night for scheduled maintenance or whatever. Now that's a pipedream!
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
BG

Your concern is not how I read page 13. A full connect is the ultimate plan.

The document was in 2014. They even call it "Grovedale" station. The plan pre-supposes RRL and duplication to Waurn Ponds. Those are now reality (nearly).

The phased approach looks like consultant padding the document. The more modern approach, LXRA,  is bite the bullet and do it all.

cheers
John
justarider
Thanks John, I was actually looking at P7 diagram, I didn't look at it in conjunction with the various P12/13 alternatives

It is really interesting what they say in regards to benchmarking shuttles against direct services and how it would not be time competitive with pax driving to Geetroit and getting the train from there.

BG
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
A few observations and comments from a Geelong local and commuter-

Prior to the last State election I saw a consultants report for a new duplicated Geelong tunnel. The northern portal was to the west side of the current tunnel and southern portal was between Yarra & Swanston Sts including a new sunken South Geelong Station. Yarra St also passed over the "ditch". The project would eliminate all level crossings between Geelong Station and the Carr/Fyans St roundabout. Therefore the current level crossing removal at the Carr/Fyans St roundabout makes sense.

Personally I think heavy rail to Torquay is overkill. I think the planning studies are a bit of lip service. The main thoroughfares between Waurn Ponds station and Torquay North have been built wide enough to run light rail and personally I think this is a better overall public transport solution and is what we'll end up seeing but not for a long time.

One of my main gripes sine 2015 is lack of urgency to get the proposed and funded Waurn Ponds Bombardier stabling facilities up and running. But from what I have heard there's a few issues at play here, one being the imminent arrival of 4-car V/locities and lack of servicing and stabling facilities for which the Waurn Ponds facility will handle as well as available paths through the single section which for the duplication will take care of.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
@SamTheMan79, in the case of a new light-rail vs heavy-rail, there is not a lot of difference in construct costs.

They both need a full roadway surveyed and built, including drains, elevations, crossings. Tracks on top of that are much the same. Ditto for the overhead electric.

The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage, and no way to get to workshops except the back of a big truck.

Running cost light-rail probably better.
Network connection, heavy-rail definitely better

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage,
justarider

Uh-oh spaghettio...
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage,

Uh-oh spaghettio...
potatoinmymouth
build it as 5,3. Problem Solved
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage,

Uh-oh spaghettio...
build it as 5,3. Problem Solved
Dangersdan707
Doesn't solve the problem at all, just makes an odd gauge, non standard equipment = higher capital and higher maintenance costs.
  Inland_Sailor Junior Train Controller

The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage,

Uh-oh spaghettio...
build it as 5,3. Problem Solved
Doesn't solve the problem at all, just makes an odd gauge, non standard equipment = higher capital and higher maintenance costs.
Nightfire
Building it all as SG does though!
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage,

Uh-oh spaghettio...
build it as 5,3. Problem Solved
Doesn't solve the problem at all, just makes an odd gauge, non standard equipment = higher capital and higher maintenance costs.
Building it all as SG does though!
Inland_Sailor
LaughingLaughingLaughing
pushing a tram back on the train tracks to SCS, then switch to tram track to Southgate Depot is a big enough logistic nightmare.
Let's just add another 11km of SG spur line from North Geelong to Marshall to make it possible.!!!

That of course assumes that it's not the wheels being the problem, and the tram is pushable.

The more realistic
1. dissemble the E class into units, and load the problem unit(s) on a big truck(s)
2. Of course it's oversize, so big escort, middle of the night etc.

A lot of effort for a single isolated tram line , 100km away from home.

And don't dare suggest building a workshop at Torquay just for this little branch. That would be laughable.

cheers
John
  Inland_Sailor Junior Train Controller

The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage,

Uh-oh spaghettio...
build it as 5,3. Problem Solved
Doesn't solve the problem at all, just makes an odd gauge, non standard equipment = higher capital and higher maintenance costs.
Building it all as SG does though!
LaughingLaughingLaughing
pushing a tram back on the train tracks to SCS, then switch to tram track to Southgate Depot is a big enough logistic nightmare.
Let's just add another 11km of SG spur line from North Geelong to Marshall to make it possible.!!!

That of course assumes that it's not the wheels being the problem, and the tram is pushable.

The more realistic
1. dissemble the E class into units, and load the problem unit(s) on a big truck(s)
2. Of course it's oversize, so big escort, middle of the night etc.

A lot of effort for a single isolated tram line , 100km away from home.

And don't dare suggest building a workshop at Torquay just for this little branch. That would be laughable.

cheers
John
justarider
it was said with some cynicism. though elsewhere on these pages I have written on converting the regional lines, [excluding the Geelong RRL and Bairnsdale] but including the Warrnambool line, to SG and run the SG Vlos on them.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage,

Uh-oh spaghettio...
Building it all as SG does though!
LaughingLaughingLaughing

A lot of effort for a single isolated tram line , 100km away from home.
it was said with some cynicism. though elsewhere on these pages I have written on converting the regional lines, [excluding the Geelong RRL and Bairnsdale] but including the Warrnambool line, to SG and run the SG Vlos on them.
Inland_Sailor
Sailor , you play the cynical card and I'll raise you a double skeptical.

2 Bob each way: SG to Warrnambool, or any Train/Tram to Torquay.

I think I'll invest my 20 cents in a bank with compound interest.
By the time either of these happen, the bank account will pay for it easy.

cheers
John
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
The substantial problem with light-rail is being Standard Guage,

Uh-oh spaghettio...
build it as 5,3. Problem Solved
Doesn't solve the problem at all, just makes an odd gauge, non standard equipment = higher capital and higher maintenance costs.
Building it all as SG does though!
LaughingLaughingLaughing
pushing a tram back on the train tracks to SCS, then switch to tram track to Southgate Depot is a big enough logistic nightmare.
Let's just add another 11km of SG spur line from North Geelong to Marshall to make it possible.!!!

That of course assumes that it's not the wheels being the problem, and the tram is pushable.

The more realistic
1. dissemble the E class into units, and load the problem unit(s) on a big truck(s)
2. Of course it's oversize, so big escort, middle of the night etc.

A lot of effort for a single isolated tram line , 100km away from home.

And don't dare suggest building a workshop at Torquay just for this little branch. That would be laughable.

cheers
John
justarider
A lightrail/tram line from Waurn Ponds or even Deakin University at a guess would be only the first stage of a larger network in Geelong.

Look at the success of light rail on the Gold Coast even with its own depot and workshop...

Yes the last part of that is tongue in cheek.
  wolvestrains Station Staff

I am a Waurn Ponds local and train commuter,  I cant decide if these two proposals are going to be good or bad for me.

For sure we need the duplication of the tracks. One of the problems with the service is delays become a problem once the train is on the single track section. This is having a knock on effect on the next train coming up from Melbourne and vline deciding to terminate it early at either Geelong or South Geelong to allow it to make up time on the way back to Melbourne. This is usually done with little or no warning to passengers ( I am subscribed to Vline service text updates).

I have worries about a future Torquay line branching off at Marshall however as I am worried they might send every second train that way meaning I will lose the frequency of service that the double tracking is supposed to provide. Hopefully it is a branch line or a light rail link.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
@wolvestrains , the branching off of heavy rail at Marshall would almost certainly result in only 1/2 trains going to Waurn Ponds.

But don't despair, the consultant report 4 years ago needs revision to allow for the huge expansion at WP since then.
Marshall looked like the big thing, now it's  WP.

The more logical connection isn't so much a branch off Marshall,  
more see the Torquay line as an extension of the WP line (and Warrnambool is the branch).
(yes, link Torquay to WP instead)

No loss to WP and as many trains to Torquay as needed.

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

In the Future I forsee

2 Trains per hour to Waurn Ponds (with one continuing to Colac)
2 Trains per hour each to Torquay and Drysdale/Clifton Springs

Gives 10 minute service to Geelong, and 20 minute service to Key spur lines with high population (Leopold, Armstrong Creek etc.)
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
What will happen here would most likely vary depending on the result of the November State election.

If Labor wins, the plan continues as is, a new maintenence base at Waurn Ponds (eventually), double track and a branch from South of Marshall down to Torquay (built in 2 stages, 1st to Armstrong Ck, 2nd to Torquay Nth). When the Melton line is electrified (I'm still holding out hope this will be in time for the 2025 opening of the Metro tunnel) then there will be sufficient paths to increase off peak frequencies to 30 minutes on the Ballarat line, and 15 minutes on the Geelong line. Every 2nd Geelong train will terminate at Waurn Ponds (30 minute frequency, up from the current 40 minutes) and every other train will continue on from Marshall to Torquay, giving Marshall a 15 minute frequency, a big improvement over the current 40 minutes and Torquay a 30 minute frequency, a big improvement over nothing.

This should all be a reality by 2025.

The longer term vision for Geelong sees the line being electrified from Southern Cross to Waurn Ponds, with faster trains capable of 200-240km/h. This will change things for the branch line to Torquay, then they will continue getting Vlocities, at a higher frequency running as shuttles between Marshall and Torquay meeting high speed sparks to and from Melbourne. The inconvenience of changing trains mitigated by the faster journey time to Melbourne.

This should be a reality in the range somewhere between 2034 and 2040, when the oldest members of the Vlocity fleet will start reaching the 30 year old mark.

If successful, expect the full electrification of the Ballarat line to follow

If the Libs win, then the whole plan will change, probably not for the good if their past record on public transport is anything to go by.
  wolvestrains Station Staff

That is not fair though I want a train every 15/20 min from Waurn Ponds. Surely there would be a backlash if they double track to Waurn Ponds promise more frequent services (which is what is being done in the Geelong Advertiser at the moment), build the double tracks, introduce extra trains, then a few years down the track take those extra trains away again.
  wolvestrains Station Staff

What I would really like is an electrified line and a fleet of Virgin Pendolino trains, Travelled on these a lot in the UK, they are fast and so comfortable. The distance from Waurn Ponds to Melbourne should be able to be done in 45 mins really. Australian Trains are so slow.

I have booked a trip for October from Birmingham to the Lake District, 220 km, in one hour 40 minutes. The 80 km's Geelong to Melbourne takes one hour 10mins.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Infrastructure Australia assessment shows a BCR of 0.6

http://infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/projects/files/Project_Evaluation-Waurn_Ponds_Duplication_Stage_2_FINAL.pdfB
True Believers
Being discussed over at

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11398446.htm

The classic Railpage Divide and Conquer strategy!

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Infrastructure Australia assessment shows a BCR of 0.6

http://infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/projects/files/Project_Evaluation-Waurn_Ponds_Duplication_Stage_2_FINAL.pdfB
Being discussed over at

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11398446.htm

The classic Railpage Divide and Conquer strategy!

BG
BrentonGolding

Sadly, when we have illogical calls for Pendolino's above...the discussion has lost its way...

M.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction

Sadly, when we have illogical calls for Pendolino's above...the discussion has lost its way...

M.
The Vinelander
As opposed to pretty much every other RP thread?!?!?!?

BG

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