Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Why are you ok with a gold plated service for Dandenong and Frankston, but not Geelong?

The sooner Melbourne has a Paris RER style express network the better. Bring the service up to standard, don't drag it down to the lowest denominator.
John.Z
One needs to look at things on a case-by-case basis.

With Pakenham, the Latrobe Valley, Cranbourne/Clyde, and a connection to Frankston serving the greater Mornnington Peninsula and Western Port, an additional SG track pair to Dandenong is more than economically justified.  It would be highly utilised, and combined with true, high capacity BG metro services would help develop both Dandenong and Frankston as principal suburban centres.

On the other hand, given the lack of sprawl to the west, operating Geelong services alongside Werribee services is the more feasible option in that case (with connection from Newport to SCS with two stations in Fishermans Bend).  This could preferably be achieved through extension of Werribee services to Geelong (eg. with six stops b/w SCS and Werribee), or alternatively sacrificing capacity and reliability for reduced journey time by expressing Newport to Werribee on Geelong runs.

I'm not sure if you understand how the RER operates, since what I've described for Geelong is exactly how things would be done in Paris.  The metro and RER routes run largely independent of each other, with the latter supplementing the former, rather than existing to exclusively serve the outer regions.  The main difference being larger station spacing and rollingstock with more seating in the case of the RER.


The days of closing stations are over. Although some might have little use at the moment, it would be political suicide to do so. The whole point of this discussion is to provide an proper alternative to the freeway for commuters to Melbourne and Geelong. We want more people to live in Geelong, and to facilitate this, we need a decent express train to Melbourne. There is plenty of space beyond Newport on the Werribee line, other than perhaps in Werribee itself. Putting in an extra two tracks to accommodate trains at least every 10 minutes to Geelong is justifiable.
reub

Geelong as an extended service via Werribee/Fishermans Bend is perfectly capable of achieving this, there is no need for express trackwork to skip three suburban stops (you haven't mentioned what happens after Newport, you would either need to extend those tracks all the way to the city at great expense, or end up with an unreliable mess as you try to converge everything down).  Even as it is, most commuters to the CBD use the train - if one doesn't, their problem is with the journey from their home to the station, or the city to their workplace, it has little to do with the quality of the service between Geelong and the city.


The common denominator between SRL and the Geelong High Speed Rail projects is population. The government is seriously concerned about the great increase to Melbourne's population. SRL is designed to remove the unnecessary pressure on the CBD for cross-city journeys. Yes, it comes at a high price, but the consequence of not building it is a huge increase in congestion over the next few years. Similarly, High Speed Rail is one of many ploys to develop Geelong as a genuine second city in Victoria. While it will eventually likely be connected to Melbourne via suburbia, it has plenty of room to expand.
reub

The SRL will do squat for reducing congestion, and the real consequence of such a polished turd is leaving nothing available to improve the suburban bus network, which is something that could actually achieve such results

Also, Geelong and Melbourne will thankfully never meet, due to the sewage works and airport.

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  ptvcommuter Train Controller

@ZH836301

Geelong as an extended Metro service via Werribee will take 40-50 Minutes. Will that make people change to cars and get off the Westgate, no

A fast, reliable service between 25-35 Minutes to Geelong with trains travelling between 200-300km/h will make them come. Geelong passengers want their own dedicated fast trains
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

@ZH836301

Geelong as an extended Metro service via Werribee will take 40-50 Minutes. Will that make people change to cars and get off the Westgate, no

A fast, reliable service between 25-35 Minutes to Geelong with trains travelling between 200-300km/h will make them come. Geelong passengers want their own dedicated fast trains
ptvcommuter
Geelong rail commuters want a reliable and efficient service, every 20 mins in suffciient, Master Frankenstein has put fwd  good comments and tells it the way it is and should be.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Geelong as an extended Metro service via Werribee will take 40-50 Minutes. Will that make people change to cars and get off the Westgate, no
ptvcommuter

You have no idea what you're talking about.

You can show off your lack of knowledge by telling me you think the Geelong-CBD modal share is.


A fast, reliable service between 25-35 Minutes to Geelong with trains travelling between 200-300km/h will make them come. Geelong passengers want their own dedicated fast trains
ptvcommuter

If 'they' (the non-existent hoards driving to the CBD) want that they can pay for it.

If not, what I have posted is the best service that can be provided at a reasonable cost.

You don't need a Concorde to beat a bicycle.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Putting Geelong via Werribee and MM2 will give the same problems as today. Stuck behind SAS trains, stopping at Werribee, Newport and Laverton instead of Wyndham Vale and Tarneit. And it would take over 45 Minutes

It needs dedicated tracks which it will get with Quadding of RRL and Airport Tunnel from Sunshine to SCS. Then Trains can run at 200km or even faster which will give faster travel times of around 35 Minutes or faster if we reach for the stars.

Geelong via Metro 2 is not the best solution, you don’t solve anything with it you just create more problems. The Geelong fast line which Andrews is proposing will finally deliver a world class and reliable service to the region

One of my friends puts up with the rubbish service that Geelong currently gets with services often late and overcrowded. Going via Werribee will prolong that misery for Geelong commuters with more crowded trains and longer travel times especially going via Metro 2.

Geelong is not part of Melbourne, it has a population higher than Cairns and will soon be over 300,000 people. It is it’s own independent city, it needs a fast link with Melbourne to link both cities, something that won’t happen if you go via MM2. It will need a light rail system to Avalon and Drysdale through the town centre and will need a rail link to Torquay with a booming population down the surf coast that will be well over 50,000.

Geelong people don’t need to be shortchanged, Your plan and others on here will be insufficient for the future.
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Geelong rail commuters want a reliable and efficient service, every 20 mins in suffciient, Master Frankenstein has put fwd  good comments and tells it the way it is and should be.
trainbrain
As a Geelong rail commuter I second this.

A group of us are regulars on the 05:45 loco hauled Marshall service, timetabled to take 73 minutes from Geelong to Southern Cross. 3 out of 5 times a week we're delayed on the flyover waiting for the 07:05 Albury service to depart. If our service was replaced and the other 4 loco hauled peak services with V/Locities taking 59-61 minutes, we wouldn't be delayed on the flyover and we'd be a happy little bunch of commuters.

Go back over the years since RRL's inception and the history of "major" delays and you'll find the majority were caused by loco hauled services failing.

Reliability and efficiency will come with all peak services becoming V/Locities. Overcrowding, well that's a whole other conversation for another thread!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Personally I would like to see this style of rolling stock on the Geelong and Ballarat routes.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/taiwan-orders-50-intercity-trainsets
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Bit slow wouldn't you say?

Stadler FLIRT would be ideal for V/Line, as the fleet could be ordered with the majority configured for Geelong and Ballarat services only (electric powertrain with battery backup option, high density seating) and the remainder configured for the longer distance services which continue beyond Geelong and Ballarat (bi-mode powertrain, relaxed seat pitch and a refreshment vending machine).
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Those are only being ordered and used for commuter services in many countries including the USA.

Short Distance
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Blah blah blah...
ptvcommuter

You didn't attempt to answer my question.

Tell me what you think Geelong-CBD modal share is?  I want to know how far you are from reality.

Putting Geelong via Werribee and MM2 will give the same problems as today. Stuck behind SAS trains, stopping at Werribee, Newport and Laverton instead of Wyndham Vale and Tarneit. And it would take over 45 Minutes
ptvcommuter

Again, running Geelong services as an extension of Werribee via MM2 adds only three suburban stops.

The minuscule time penalty is not worth the funds required to resolve it, and in this manner you have a capacity beyond 50k people per hour on the line - to put that into context, journey to work train usage is 15k for Wyndham and 4k for Geelong.  You could express those three stops (HC, WL, Laverton) on Geelong runs, but the impact on capacity and reliability would not make it worthwhile.  

Driving time from Geelong to the CBD without traffic is an hour, which blows out to 90min in the peak, or worse if there is any sort of incident.  Anybody who avoids the train, either does so on principle (ie. impossible to capture), or because of difficulties at either end of the journey (eg. works in city but outside CBD), for which a slightly faster train is of no relevance.

The cost savings of implementing this most efficient option can be funnelled into other projects of greater benefit.  Sending Geelong trains via Sunshine would require four track pairs between Sunshine and the city for any measure of capacity and reliability, which is just fiscally irresponsible.


Geelong via Metro 2 is not the best solution, you don’t solve anything with it you just create more problems. The Geelong fast line which Andrews is proposing will finally deliver a world class and reliable service to the region
ptvcommuter

The day you realise money does not fall from the sky is the day I stop seeing your posts as a foaming mess, case in point...


One of my friends puts up with the rubbish service that Geelong currently gets with services often late and overcrowded. Going via Werribee will prolong that misery for Geelong commuters with more crowded trains and longer travel times especially going via Metro 2.
ptvcommuter

'Misery?'  Three suburban stops would be 'misery'.  In addition to getting a clue, I'd recommend a cup of concrete.


Geelong people don’t need to be shortchanged
ptvcommuter

Considering they barely pay anything, they're getting an awful lot more than most Melburnians.

Maximum journey time, all stops via MM2, without any upgrades to existing speeds would be on the order of 50min:

Geelong to Werribee (North Geelong, North Shore, Corio, Lara, Little River) - 26min
Werribee to Newport (Hoppers Crossing, Williams Landing, Laverton) - 18min
Newport to Southern Cross (2x Fishermans Bend) - 8min

Where times are taken from existing timetables for current legs, and equivalent distances/stops for MM2.  That's far faster than driving in the peaks, and when existing services are of the order 60-70min, I can't see how that solution is at all unpalatable.  If they aren't satisfied and want something better, then they should pay for it themselves, instead of expecting the rest of Victoria to subsidise their lifestyle choices.
  wolvestrains Station Staff
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

At an average speed of 130kph, it would take 40 minutes to get from Geelong to Melbourne on the current route (express). That seems absolutely fine for me. Diverting it via Metro 2, and adding a stop at Newport or Werribee will produce a similar result I'd imagine. Double-deck electric trains with a max speed of 160kph should be a good solution for the Geelong line. I'm sure there is plenty of room to add passing loops around stations if required.
I'd like to see full duplication before implementation of high-speed trains on the Ballarat line.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

This new rolling stock traveling at 200km/h is a waste. First of all, a 40km/h increase and probably looking at 1 Billion for new rolling stock, all for a 40km/h increase. Our current vlos with a few upgrades would be capable of that speed.

Either keep the current fleet and run at 160km/h on dedicated quadded tracks to the city taking 40 Minutes or Speed it up to 25-27 Minutes and make it 250km/h high Speed Rail
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Would the rolling stock cost be that high?  I agree EMU's are required but reaching 200 km/h would complete the journey in what 25 minutes or so?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Would the rolling stock cost be that high? I agree EMU's are required but reaching 200 km/h would complete the journey in what 25 minutes or so?
bevans

Not sure what you're smoking @bevans but 40 minutes is the Figure being floated. Remember "express" services would still include a number of intermediate stops like Sunshine (in a post-Airport Rail world).
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Would the rolling stock cost be that high? I agree EMU's are required but reaching 200 km/h would complete the journey in what 25 minutes or so?

Not sure what you're smoking @bevans but 40 minutes is the Figure being floated. Remember "express" services would still include a number of intermediate stops like Sunshine (in a post-Airport Rail world).
potatoinmymouth

I was not aware I was smoking anything.  To obtain 40 minute would that take 160 km/h trains or faster?

200 km/h which is what I thought I had read earlier could drop the time by what another 5-7 minutes?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Absolute maximum 6 minutes - reality closer to a couple of minutes, eg. pointless.
  Engineeringlogic Station Master

I like the discussion on this, and the idea of a dedicated fast rail Geelong to Melbourne, supplemented by a suburban ' stopping all stations option as well. it will help Geelong region grow in the future for sure. the bit i dont understand is why are all the fast train options a) dont stop at Avalon, b) seem to be artificially constrained to the existing rail corridor and c) are obsessed with sunshine/ southern cross as destinations/ stops.
Surly, with a dedicated fast line we can go Geelong, Avalon, Melbourne (SC/ Anzac dont really care tbh) in under 30 mins. Use the existing network / Airport rail to go to sunshine, werribee and all stops in between?

My point is, Geelong , Avalon and lets say, SC as main stations on a fast route. If the line ran fast enough, then the intermediate stations can feed backwards ( eg, North Geelong- Geelong or Avalon, and Change at SC to get to airport vis sunshine etc. ) without too much of a time penalty for the commuter.
I get that Avalon is a dusty paddock a the moment, but with a dedicated station, it will make the airport far more attractive in the future to have a platform right there, rather than change at lara from the HS or Suburban line. Having both lines run through lara just doesnt make sense to me!
Discuss!!
  Engineeringlogic Station Master

I like the discussion on this, and the idea of a dedicated fast rail Geelong to Melbourne, supplemented by a suburban ' stopping all stations option as well. it will help Geelong region grow in the future for sure. the bit i dont understand is why are all the fast train options a) dont stop at Avalon, b) seem to be artificially constrained to the existing rail corridor and c) are obsessed with sunshine/ southern cross as destinations/ stops.
Surly, with a dedicated fast line we can go Geelong, Avalon, Melbourne (SC/ Anzac dont really care tbh) in under 30 mins. Use the existing network / Airport rail to go to sunshine, werribee and all stops in between?

My point is, Geelong , Avalon and lets say, SC as main stations on a fast route. If the line ran fast enough, then the intermediate stations can feed backwards ( eg, North Geelong- Geelong or Avalon, and Change at SC to get to airport vis sunshine etc. ) without too much of a time penalty for the commuter.
I get that Avalon is a dusty paddock a the moment, but with a dedicated station, it will make the airport far more attractive in the future to have a platform right there, rather than change at lara from the HS or Suburban line. Having both lines run through lara just doesnt make sense to me!
Discuss!!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
The existing line, quadded from SCS to Wyndham Vale with a bus connection at Lara for very short ride to Avalon is all that's need at present and the medium to long term.

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The existing line, quadded from SCS to Wyndham Vale with a bus connection at Lara for very short ride to Avalon is all that's need at present and the medium to long term.
The Vinelander

Whatever happened to the proposal to link Avalon airport to the rail network proposed by the libs?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
The existing line, quadded from SCS to Wyndham Vale with a bus connection at Lara for very short ride to Avalon is all that's need at present and the medium to long term.

Whatever happened to the proposal to link Avalon airport to the rail network proposed by the libs?
bevans

Didn't get up and unlikely to...like the Libs proposal for Doncaster etc.

Mike.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Why do we need a Geelong service that can reach Melbourne in 30 minutes?  Where's the demand, and who's going to pay for it?

Some in the outer suburbs could wait that long just to see a train, let alone a bus.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

I see the usual knuckleheads keep insisting on a super fast choochoo line from Geeelloong,a good regular commuter service is all that is required. twenty  minutes is more than efficient. You lot are just plain kidding yourselves. I keep saying How many rail lines do Geelooong need? It has sufficient...………….in theory they are three line already from Southern Cross (4 via Ballarat) oh and plus the SG to North Shore that services the Overdue. Funds should be put elsewhere, it would be a shocking move to electrify the RRL except for Werribee around the corner to Windamvale. (much cheaper)  It would certainly keep u goonzels happy and then you can play trains to yyour heart content. Ok, the best way 2 spend some money is too by me a nu dictionary.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Why do we need a Geelong service that can reach Melbourne in 30 minutes?  Where's the demand, and who's going to pay for it?

Some in the outer suburbs could wait that long just to see a train, let alone a bus.
ZH836301
Geelong, Pakenham, Frankston (amongst other cities) could all have premium (higher cost) 30min express services to supplement SAS services into Melbourne. Have to start somewhere.

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