2019 Election - Labor promises $1Billion for 'bullet train' land acquisition

 

News article: Labor promises $1 billion for high-speed rail corridor between Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne

Labor will attempt again to revive a long-held ambition to build a high-speed rail network linking Canberra to the east coast capitals, by committing $1 billion to secure land for a corridor to make it happen if elected on May 18.

  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
RTT is spot on. It’s an outrageous sum of money on a marginal project. There are just so many higher rail priorities it’s not funny.
potatoinmymouth

We have become so accustomed to the current political situation that many of us cannot see there is a far better alternative and as Bill Shorten says, ScoMo is offering the same as the past 6 years with a tax cut. This is the reason Bill won the three debates...he actually has a vision for the future.


Thinking in today's terms is short sighted when the correct course of action is to acquire the land for the HSR over a period of time then start the business case.

Nobody is suggesting we start construction of the HSR this time next week when the election result will be known and the malaise of the past 6 years is gone...consigned to history and good riddance to it.

Mike.

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  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
For a start this is pure fantasy and electioneering. Melbourne to Brisbane in 3 hours by train means maglev or hyperloop. At that speed there also won't be any stops in regional towns. This is just an expensive pipe dream that will leave the country in a hole forever and ever.
simstrain
C'mon sims, get your facts right.  It's 3 hours from Sydney to Melbourne or Brisbane.  I have to admit that I would prefer a Medium Speed Rail option upgrading existing rail lines, which wouldn't be competing with the airlines for the long distance journeys, but would provide a greatly enhanced rail service for Regional centres to and from the State Capitals.  It would also significantly reduce travel times between State Capitals for those who choose to travel by rail rather than fly.

I don't see any problem with the alleged conflict between servicing express and slower Regional services for either HSR or MSR.  The simple solution is to provide separate platforms to service Regional services and allow the faster services to overtake them on adjacent express lines.  It's common practice in the world's High Speed networks.  With the level of frequency that would be warranted, I don't see this as being an issue anyway.

Having said that, if a Labor Government is proposing to buy up land to reserve a future corridor for HSR, then I wouldn't disagree with it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT is spot on. It’s an outrageous sum of money on a marginal project. There are just so many higher rail priorities it’s not funny.

We have become so accustomed to the current political situation that many of us cannot see there is a far better alternative and as Bill Shorten says, ScoMo is offering the same as the past 6 years with a tax cut. This is the reason Bill won the three debates...he actually has a vision for the future.


Thinking in today's terms is short sighted when the correct course of action is to acquire the land for the HSR over a period of time then start the business case.

Nobody is suggesting we start construction of the HSR this time next week when the election result will be known and the malaise of the past 6 years is gone...consigned to history and good riddance to it.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike,
Billy will get into power on the back of LNP infighting and disunity, the same reason the ALP was voted out last time.

However your so called visionary is playing on the lower end of the electorate that he has previously ripped off and even you acknowledge this. He is going to become PM with one of the lowest approval ratings, he will be lucky to start his PM'ship with an approval rating as high as Johnny Howard was voted out on.  Kevin Rudd at the start of his first term had nearly twice as much approval than your visionary.

Perhaps if the LNP didn't have to go into budget repair in their first two terms of govt following the ALP they could also offer more.

The LNP did deserve to loose, although ScoMo was turning things around a bit and Billy was in a rush to go to the polls because he sees the trends working against him and would be lucky to survive Xmas as Opposition leader without an election this year.

Back to the HSR,
Why is that for a project be labelled visionary, it must also be a black hole in the budget?

Yes, most of us know the HSR will not be built within the next 15 years, we have at least one study to support this and yes there is nothing wrong with starting to look at routes and land acquisition and corridor preservation. However I think its fair to ask the question why we are doing this for HSR, yet we cannot even do this for improved freight?

The biggest issue is however the cost of fares. The previous study on predicted fares was completely out of touch with reality including comparison with EU fares on corridors with much high patronage. The reason they listed those prices is because if they listed the more realistic fares, the first question people would ask is why are we building this, air fares are cheaper!
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
RTT is spot on. It’s an outrageous sum of money on a marginal project. There are just so many higher rail priorities it’s not funny.

We have become so accustomed to the current political situation that many of us cannot see there is a far better alternative and as Bill Shorten says, ScoMo is offering the same as the past 6 years with a tax cut. This is the reason Bill won the three debates...he actually has a vision for the future.


Thinking in today's terms is short sighted when the correct course of action is to acquire the land for the HSR over a period of time then start the business case.

Nobody is suggesting we start construction of the HSR this time next week when the election result will be known and the malaise of the past 6 years is gone...consigned to history and good riddance to it.

Mike.
Mike,
Billy will get into power on the back of LNP infighting and disunity, the same reason the ALP was voted out last time.

However your so called visionary is playing on the lower end of the electorate that he has previously ripped off and even you acknowledge this. He is going to become PM with one of the lowest approval ratings, he will be lucky to start his PM'ship with an approval rating as high as Johnny Howard was voted out on.  Kevin Rudd at the start of his first term had nearly twice as much approval than your visionary.

Perhaps if the LNP didn't have to go into budget repair in their first two terms of govt following the ALP they could also offer more.

The LNP did deserve to loose, although ScoMo was turning things around a bit and Billy was in a rush to go to the polls because he sees the trends working against him and would be lucky to survive Xmas as Opposition leader without an election this year.

Back to the HSR,
Why is that for a project be labelled visionary, it must also be a black hole in the budget?

Yes, most of us know the HSR will not be built within the next 15 years, we have at least one study to support this and yes there is nothing wrong with starting to look at routes and land acquisition and corridor preservation. However I think its fair to ask the question why we are doing this for HSR, yet we cannot even do this for improved freight?

The biggest issue is however the cost of fares. The previous study on predicted fares was completely out of touch with reality including comparison with EU fares on corridors with much high patronage. The reason they listed those prices is because if they listed the more realistic fares, the first question people would ask is why are we building this, air fares are cheaper!
RTT_Rules
Shayne, you're being disingenuous to what Labor is proposing and your opinions are biased towards a rotting carcass of the LNP.  It shows how out of touch you are with the current political climate in Australia.  I find your remarks that Shorten is "playing on the lower end of the electorate that he has previously ripped off" offensive and unjustified. There are more than a lot of us who aren't in the so called "lower end of the electorate" who would disagree. The fact that Shorten is the less preferred leader is irrelevant, when it's the policies that count and that's why Labor has consistently been ahead in the polls.  At the end of the day, that's all that really matters.

Your comments on Labor's HSR proposal are coloured by your  LNP bias.   Best of luck on election day comrade.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Your comments on Labor's HSR proposal are coloured by your LNP bias.
Transtopic

Who cares?

You want to spend $100 billion on rail infrastructure to grow the national economy? Be my guest. But a superior alternative would be to just hand $50b each to Spring Street and Macquarie Street (our population-adjusted fractions, if you so insist.) Both governments have got vast unrealised rail infrastructure schemes that actually fall within the envelope of conventional economics. Even if you forced them to spend it outside the capital cities you would get an actually useful outcome that didn’t involve Very Fast Boondoggles through the bush on a scale completely unknown to the rest of the world.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Optimism is a wonderful thing.
Agreed. Everyone is so pessimistic about the High-Speed Railway in Australia.

If you've come to Victoria, the transport agenda is the last 4 years has been quickly developing and the Suburban rail loop, the most visionary project in Victoria's history of 50 billion dollars has had a full endorsement by the public.

Yes, High-Speed Rail will cost a lot and take a long time. But it's a long term investment. Just like the Suburban rail loop, it will start, and when the ball gets rolling, then you'll likely see it to completion.

If you don't start now, then it'll be a bigger problem later on and it'll just get worse.
True Believers
If I was a taxpayer in SA, Tas and WA asked to fork out on an East Coast HSR costing at least $100 Billion I would be bridal too. The SRL is not visionary it is a vanity project that is not required and based on pure speculation.

If you want the HSR, you pay for it. I would rather the money be spent on urban transport projects. If you havent noticed Melbourne's commuter system aint that crash and dont mention the bloody SRL. You really think that the ALP or anyone else can deliver a HSR when we cant even get the Inland Rail right? Dream on.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
I genuinely believe Albo sees the high speed rail project as his "marquee" project which he will obviously personally oversee for at least 1 term should the ALP be successful tomorrow week.  if this is true then it could be a stunning achievement and Albo would be remembered for his vision and forward thinking and his commitment overall to build out this vital piece of infrastructure.   An Australia with the project completed will look very different to today with towns between the major cities and on the line booming with pride and growth.

if you consider how nation building this project would be then Albo would be remembered for it.

On the other hand Daniel Andrew's could be remembered for the man who cut down 30,000 trees and trashed parklands and crated traffic gridlock in the inner north.  Well that is for another day.
x31
Word Salad. The ALP Federally has as much chance of building the HSR as I have playing full forward for Geelong. On the other hand you are criticizing the most Pro rail premier we have ever had in this state. I wish we would not continue with the freeway schemes.

Michael
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Shayne, you're being disingenuous to what Labor is proposing and your opinions are biased towards a rotting carcass of the LNP.  It shows how out of touch you are with the current political climate in Australia.  I find your remarks that Shorten is "playing on the lower end of the electorate that he has previously ripped off" offensive and unjustified. There are more than a lot of us who aren't in the so called "lower end of the electorate" who would disagree. The fact that Shorten is the less preferred leader is irrelevant, when it's the policies that count and that's why Labor has consistently been ahead in the polls.  At the end of the day, that's all that really matters.

Your comments on Labor's HSR proposal are coloured by your  LNP bias.   Best of luck on election day comrade.
Transtopic
Its Shane (without the Y),

Yes it is justified and you know why its justified and should only be offensive to those who have been ripped off by those they voted to protect them.

Agree the LNP is in a mess and deserve to loose and I think most expect this, I said that many times, although ScoMo I believe has turned the boat and the data seems to support it and why Billy wanted an early election, that and he doesn't give a crap about spending taxpayers money funding early elections.

Yes his poor approval rating is very important, Australia has had now 4 PM's dumped prior to the next election due to unpopularity. If BS gets in as PM at sub 40% approval rating, the chances of improving are very slim, so if the polls were to start to look shaky leading to the next election, how long to you think the ALP faithful will be faithfull?

Your previous post indicated you believe the focus should be more towards the MSR concept, not HSR, so you agree the whole HSR promotion by the ALP is a vote buying exercise pandering to who, surely not the bolted on LNP voters?
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Face it everyone...it's a boondoogle. There will be 1000 reports and studies delivered during the next three years, and another 1000 reports and studies delivered before the 2024 election. This is all about being seen to be doing something without doing anything at all. And if, against all my cynicism and the fiscal realities of Australian public spending, this project actually goes ahead, resulting in Qantas and Virgin losing most of their eastcoast customers...where does that leave the rest of Australia? The destruction of the Australian domestic aviation industry is almost a certainty, so be careful what you wish for.
  GoldenGirl Locomotive Driver

Your comments on Labor's HSR proposal are coloured by your  LNP bias.   Best of luck on election day comrade.
Transtopic
And yours are not coloured by your ALP bias???

I think Simstrain had the best comment on this issue:

The high speed rail is just something people think we should have because other places have it without realising that it does nothing for Australia.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There benefits High Speed Rail will provide in Australia are vast and have been well documented over a long period of time. Why shouldn't a wealthy country like Australia have regional communities who can expect to have a short train ride to a major capital or in the case of Canberra to Sydney move swiftly between capitals.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There benefits High Speed Rail will provide in Australia are vast and have been well documented over a long period of time. Why shouldn't a wealthy country like Australia have regional communities who can expect to have a short train ride to a major capital or in the case of Canberra to Sydney move swiftly between capitals.
bevans

No there is not bevans. There is only dream land. Australia is not Japan, Europe or China. If you want to be close to the capitals then you should live in the capitals otherwise enjoy living in regional areas and stay away from the cities. If you want to go to the cities in a couple of hours then catch a plane.

The proposed high speed rail is going to cost too much in construction and then continue to bleed money in it's operation. It will benefit way too few people to make the $100 billion investment anywhere near viable. The only people it will benefit are the greedy developer SOB's who want to turn the entire country to units.

This discussion is really just about wanting a nice toy that some other countries have just because it is the latest and greatest. It is an image thing that has exactly zero benefits for this country.
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, "Segoe UI", Segoe, "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]“Why shouldn't a wealthy country like Australia have regional communities who can expect to have a short train ride to a major capital or in the case of Canberra to Sydney move swiftly between capitals.”[size=2]Because, with 1-2 possible exceptions (Wagga & Albury/Wodonga) any regional community that is added to the system will reduce its effectiveness as “high speed rail”.
[center][color=#0066cc][/color][/center] [center][color=#0066cc][/color][/center] [center][color=#0066cc][/color][/center] [center][color=#0066cc][/color][/center] [center][color=#0066cc][/color][/center] [center][color=#0066cc][/color][/center]
[/size]



[/font][/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, "Segoe UI", Segoe, "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][url=https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2144502.htm#2144502][color=#0066cc][/color][/url]Posted: May 12, 2019 8:30 am
[/font][/size][/color]
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
That worked well from my iPhone. Apologies for all the gobbledygook
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT is spot on. It’s an outrageous sum of money on a marginal project. There are just so many higher rail priorities it’s not funny.

We have become so accustomed to the current political situation that many of us cannot see there is a far better alternative and as Bill Shorten says, ScoMo is offering the same as the past 6 years with a tax cut. This is the reason Bill won the three debates...he actually has a vision for the future.


Thinking in today's terms is short sighted when the correct course of action is to acquire the land for the HSR over a period of time then start the business case.

Nobody is suggesting we start construction of the HSR this time next week when the election result will be known and the malaise of the past 6 years is gone...consigned to history and good riddance to it.

Mike.
The Vinelander
I'm sorry since when is labor a better solution. Do you not remember 2007-13 and the mess that mob created. Labor is just as prone to leadership spills if not more so then the liberals are. Some of you have such short memories.

Labor should remember how they failed at such a project in the NBN when they were last in charge. Maybe they should look at fixing that up before they even think about doing a VHST. Focus on things they can actually do in 3 years like what they propose to do with hospitals, aged care and disabled care and forget about big projects that will do nothing for the country and which the country can't afford.

Leave public transport to the states and concentrate on the things they can do over the next 3 years instead.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

dont mention the bloody SRL.
mejhammers1

I suggest you don't look at the Melbourne forum today then...
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
There benefits High Speed Rail will provide in Australia are vast and have been well documented over a long period of time. Why shouldn't a wealthy country like Australia have regional communities who can expect to have a short train ride to a major capital or in the case of Canberra to Sydney move swiftly between capitals.
bevans

OK; I won't be hard to get on with; name just one of these "vast, well documented" benefits, and tell me who the beneficiaries really are.

Who says Australia is a wealthy country? We have a vast land area and a minuscule population, hardly any manufacturing industries these days, and very few taxpayers per unit area of land. The revenue that we do have is better spent elsewhere than on fanciful HSR.  Regional communities expect to have a short train ride to a major capital? ( is there any minor capital?)? Why should they expect this? Comfortable, yes; affordable, yes; efficient, yes; very high speed, no. The much better option is to spend the money to provide hospitals, schools, universities et al so that it reduces the need to travel to the capital. In a word, decentralisation.

Finally, Canberra to Sydney; what's so special about that particular trip?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Coming much clearer to me know the lack of election promises for regional rail upgrades for Victoria,  nothing really on offer for better services with a lot of money now going into Melbourne upgrades once again.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
There benefits High Speed Rail will provide in Australia are vast and have been well documented over a long period of time. Why shouldn't a wealthy country like Australia have regional communities who can expect to have a short train ride to a major capital or in the case of Canberra to Sydney move swiftly between capitals.

No there is not bevans. There is only dream land. Australia is not Japan, Europe or China. If you want to be close to the capitals then you should live in the capitals otherwise enjoy living in regional areas and stay away from the cities. If you want to go to the cities in a couple of hours then catch a plane.

The proposed high speed rail is going to cost too much in construction and then continue to bleed money in it's operation. It will benefit way too few people to make the $100 billion investment anywhere near viable. The only people it will benefit are the greedy developer SOB's who want to turn the entire country to units.

This discussion is really just about wanting a nice toy that some other countries have just because it is the latest and greatest. It is an image thing that has exactly zero benefits for this country.
simstrain
Agree 100%. It is going to cost more than $100 Billion to provide the sort of frequency that the airlines are providing. I cannot for the life of me why they just cannot improve the existing corridor, so that freight can compete with road on the Sydney - Melbourne corridor. To me that is far more beneficial.

Michael
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

I'm sorry since when is labor a better solution. Do you not remember 2007-13 and the mess that mob created. Labor is just as prone to leadership spills if not more so then the liberals are. Some of you have such short memories.

....................................................
simstrain
Once again the GFC (Global Financial Crisis) is ignored.



Labor should remember how they failed at such a project in the NBN when they were last in charge. ............................
simstrain
That was a different NBN. The LNP NBN is just the replacement of a lot of tired old infrastructure deferred.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I'm sorry since when is labor a better solution. Do you not remember 2007-13 and the mess that mob created. Labor is just as prone to leadership spills if not more so then the liberals are. Some of you have such short memories.

....................................................
Once again the GFC (Global Financial Crisis) is ignored.



Labor should remember how they failed at such a project in the NBN when they were last in charge. ............................
That was a different NBN. The LNP NBN is just the replacement of a lot of tired old infrastructure deferred.
kitchgp
No one is ignoring the GFC, what most with eyes open can see is three years of screws up that followed that left the budget a mess.

The cost of he NBN would have been unaffordable. As he data shows few subsribers are willing to pay for the higher speed connections and when the NBN was first announced they were told by the time they finished the Mobile network would exceed the NBN speed.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
“Why shouldn't a wealthy country like Australia have regional communities who can expect to have a short train ride to a major capital or in the case of Canberra to Sydney move swiftly between capitals.”Because, with 1-2 possible exceptions (Wagga & Albury/Wodonga) any regional community that is added to the system will reduce its effectiveness as “high speed rail”.

Posted: May 12, 2019 8:30 am
SinickleBird
You expect a town for 5000 people or less to have a 300km/h journey to the city multiple times a day?

- Can-Syd - MSR no issue
- Mel to Syd for the purposes of access to the city and inter-regional, MSR no issue
- Syd to Bris for the purposes of access to the city and inter-regional, MSR no issue

But Mel to Syd or VV HSR or BRisbane to Syd or VV HSR, no, we don't need or can practically afford for at least another two decades.

What Billy could have done if he was such a visionary is lay out a road map to progressively improve regional rail from its current snail speed, averaging 70-80km/h to averaging +120km/h using existing and CAF train sets and then move to MSR including improving freight over the next two decades then potentially making the platform step to HSR, if warranted.

Whats his current plan is go from 3rd world status to HSR in one movement, leaving much of the regional networks in the 19th century along with inter-capital freight and if HSR doesn't pass the feas study, then zip!
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The GFC was a 10-year event.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The population along the whole Melbourne-Brisbane route is 15 million people and growing.

By the time the HSR is built, expect the population to double.

Melbourne - Sydney is one of the highest demand for plane routes and will suffer.

Also, planes skip over the regional towns in between.

Also, we have progressively upgraded the highway, and how much did that cost?

How much did it cost to turn the Hume Highway to a Freeway and how long did it take?

If we thought it was just too expensive and too hard, maybe we would have kept the highway btw Melbourne to Sydney as it once was.

Yes, there are many short-medium term projects with higher benefits at the moment, but in the longer term, the benefit of HSR will be there for the next 50 years when the population grows further.

The priorities are correct, the opposition is planning to spend many on short-medium term projects like the Metro Tunnel, like the Metro Net plan, like the Cross-River Rail project. And also spending 100 billion dollars on a mega project, doesn't mean smaller regional rail projects are neglected, it's complementary.

If the trains from Melbourne to Sydney are one dedicated track, that would mean the existing track capacity can be used for other uses. Also would boost productivity from regional centers.

The population density in our cities is increasing and the traditional high-speed rail technology is starting to become more affordable, it's the right time to plan it for the future.

Yes if the business case states that it's unfeasible in the next 10 years and put the project on hold, then that's alright. But there will be a point of time, where it will be feasible and useful for those along the east coast.

As for connecting up from Melbourne - Perth, air-travel would always be a win vs HSR. But for Melbourne to Sydney, it's becoming more feasible as time goes on, making the dream of HSR very possible for future generations.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There benefits High Speed Rail will provide in Australia are vast and have been well documented over a long period of time. Why shouldn't a wealthy country like Australia have regional communities who can expect to have a short train ride to a major capital or in the case of Canberra to Sydney move swiftly between capitals.

OK; I won't be hard to get on with; name just one of these "vast, well documented" benefits, and tell me who the beneficiaries really are.

Who says Australia is a wealthy country? We have a vast land area and a minuscule population, hardly any manufacturing industries these days, and very few taxpayers per unit area of land. The revenue that we do have is better spent elsewhere than on fanciful HSR.  Regional communities expect to have a short train ride to a major capital? ( is there any minor capital?)? Why should they expect this? Comfortable, yes; affordable, yes; efficient, yes; very high speed, no. The much better option is to spend the money to provide hospitals, schools, universities et al so that it reduces the need to travel to the capital. In a word, decentralisation.

Finally, Canberra to Sydney; what's so special about that particular trip?
Valvegear

There isn't anything special about Canberra to Sydney. Nobody living in Canberra want to travel to Sydney to work. If they did they would live in Sydney and not in Canberra.

Everything else you say I agree with 100% valve. If you need / want to work in Sydney or other major cities then don't live in regional areas.

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