Bye Bye to George Pell

 
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

I am not asking that every suppression order be lifted but those that are used by criminals to hide their identity in high profile cases. The victims in a lot of these cases get treated worse than the person on trial. Suppress witness names yes if requested but the person being tried should not have it suppressed simply to hide. Most cases anyway you can find out who is in which court by checking the cause list anyway.

If I went to court and was framed there is not much one can do about it and it probably gets done more than any person thinks. I am one who thinks that for really bad crimes like murder, manslaughter, rape, child abuse or abuse of any kind or whatever they should bring back the death penalty as a deterent to others, hell I would even volunteer to be the hangman if required.

It would get rid of a lot of prisoners that now reside in what can only be called a motel, because I have stayed in motels worse than most prisons these days. And as for judges dont get me started, a lot are out of touch of reality and so are parole boards that let out pedo's etc only to have them commit more crimes.

The johnny do gooders of this world tried and it has failed miserably, so get tough with crims again no slaps on the wrists anymore.

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  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Yes, i know what you mean. I booked a cheap hotel in Port Fairy recently for a week's holiday and I had to spend 23 hours a day in my room with a schizophrenic. We had a TV, for sure, but the toilet was in the room too, one star less for that hotel. The one hour per day I was allowed out had to be spent in a car park with sixteen other blokes, some of whom made some rather unsavoury suggestions. Worst holiday ever.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
A verdict of not guilty doesn't mean he is innocent!
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I am one who thinks that for really bad crimes like murder, manslaughter, rape, child abuse or abuse of any kind or whatever they should bring back the death penalty as a deterent to others, hell I would even volunteer to be the hangman if required.
DJPeters
The hardy perennial. It has been amply demonstrated in many countries that the death penalty is not a deterrent.  No less a person than the English executioner Albert Pierrepoint, who hanged in excess of 600 people, said that he did not believe it had deterred anybody. Figures for murder rates v death penalty and rates v life in jail, have been quoted more times than you've had hot dinners. The great majority of murders are committed in hot blood, and no thought of deterrence even enters the criminal's head.
If killing is wrong, how can the State kill in cold blood? Such an act is just barbaric. I don't know where you were on 3rd February 1967 when Ronald Ryan was hanged in Pentridge, but the protests were not just in Melbourne; they were Australia wide. I was at work, about 2 km from the jail.
Have you ever witnessed an execution? A bloke I know ( a journalist and former opponent on the cricket field) was a witness at Ryan's hanging. He went in without any set views, and came out a committed abolitionist. To this day, the memory of a callous, cold blooded act still haunts him. The death penalty is revenge and nothing else. It has no place in a civilised country.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Regarding the appeal, reported last evening the decision has been reserved until a date in the future. around 50% of appeals in these cases get up is what SBS news stated last night.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I am one who thinks that for really bad crimes like murder, manslaughter, rape, child abuse or abuse of any kind or whatever they should bring back the death penalty as a deterent to others, hell I would even volunteer to be the hangman if required.
The hardy perennial. It has been amply demonstrated in many countries that the death penalty is not a deterrent.  No less a person than the English exexcutioner Albert Pierrepoint, who hanged in excess of 600 people, said that he did not believe it had deterred anybody. Figures for murder rates v death penalty and rates v life in jail, have been quoted more times than you've had hot dinners. The great majority of murders are committed in hot blood, and no thought of deterrence even enters the criminal's head.
If killing is wrong, how can the State kill in cold blood? Such an act is just barbaric. I don't know where you were on 3rd February 1967 when Ronald Ryan was hanged in Pentridge, but the protests were not just in Melbourne; they were Australia wide. I was at work, about 2 km from the jail.
Have you ever witnessed an execution? A bloke I know ( a former opponent on the cricket field) was a witness at Ryan's hanging. He went in without any set views, and came out a committed abolitionist. To this day, the memory of a callous, cold blooded act still haunts him. The death penalty is revenge and nothing else. It has no place in a civilised country.
Valvegear
Well said Valvegear.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
David, it’s been explained to you ad nauseam about when and why suppression orders are granted.

I cannot think of a single suppression order implemented to strictly to protect the accused.

In almost all cases suppression orders are made against things far more mundane than the accused name, and always to protect either the investigative process, evidence, witnesses and legal process.

After those reasons, the next most likely would be protection of process surrounding codefendants.

In the extremely rare case that names are suppressed post conviction it is almost always to prevent the identification of a victim, or in rarer cases, to protect the convict’s family.

What cases can refer to where the defendant post conviction has not been named?
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

And right on cue, a murder trial in Victoria has been aborted because VTV (Victorian station operated by WIN Television) aired a story which compromised the trial.

I would be entirely happy with the station manager and the reporter who filed the story being arrested and held in custody on contempt of court charges to be heard some time after the completion of the re-trial.
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
And don't forget, having the death penalty for crimes other than murder can actually encourage people to murder. A rapist, or child molester, having committed his nefarious deed, is immediately faced with the possibility of being caught. If the punishment for the crime committed is the same as for murder, then murdering the victim greatly decreases the chances of being caught, by eliminating the main witness, without risking a more severe punishment.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
I just heard that tomorrow will be the day when we find out whether George Pell's appeal will be successful, apparently 2 of the three Federal Court Judges must rule in his favour for it to be so.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
It would get rid of a lot of prisoners that now reside in what can only be called a motel, because I have stayed in motels worse than most prisons these days.
DJPeters
Didn't see this when you wrote it a few months ago -

Prisons are really bloody awful places, I've worked in prisons previously and I wouldn't wish being in prison on anyone. It's not so much the conditions that you reside in but (as Billy Baxter said) the people you're in there with are either incredibly mentally unwell or nefarious - but more often than not a combination of the two.

As part of my job I went to the very modern Metropolitan Remand Centre in Ravenhall (VIC) quite a few times and despite the fact that it was really new, clean and well set out it seemed to me to be simply a dumping ground for men who were just too psychotic to be out there in society or incapable of having a life outside of petty crime because they are homeless, low I.Q., hopelessly addicted to drugs/alcohol, compulsive gamblers, whatever.

I didn't do that job for very long, it was just too full on - I really don't know how the screws (yeah they still call them that!) cope with going into those places every day, I wouldn't touch that job with a barge-pole.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I just heard that tomorrow will be the day when we find out whether George Pell's appeal will be successful, apparently 2 of the three Federal Court Judges must rule in his favour for it to be so.
lsrailfan
Nine News says that it will be televising the decision at 9:30am (or thereabouts) tomorrow morning.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Prisons are really bloody awful places, I've worked in prisons previously and I wouldn't wish being in prison on anyone. It's not so much the conditions that you reside in but (as Billy Baxter said) the people you're in there with are either incredibly mentally unwell or nefarious - but more often than not a combination of the two.

As part of my job I went to the very modern Metropolitan Remand Centre in Ravenhall (VIC) quite a few times and despite the fact that it was really new, clean and well set out it seemed to me to be simply a dumping ground for men who were just too psychotic to be out there in society or incapable of having a life outside of petty crime because they are homeless, low I.Q., hopelessly addicted to drugs/alcohol, compulsive gamblers, whatever.

I didn't do that job for very long, it was just too full on - I really don't know how the screws (yeah they still call them that!) cope with going into those places every day, I wouldn't touch that job with a barge-pole.
don_dunstan
One hundred percent agreement - they are indeed bloody awful. I had to go on business into Port Phillip prison and, yes, it is modern, clean, well laid out and complete with a number of amenities. The whole object of the exercise is to keep the inmates busy all the time; if they're idle there are fights, moronic escape bids and heaven knows what.
Their punishment is deprivation of liberty; all the facilities pale into insignificance when you turn and look at that bloody great wall which is the limit of your world for as long as the Court decided. You'll do what you're told, when you're told, and no argument, and the company you have in there is just not my cup of tea. Like Don, I'm staying out.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
I would wager $1,000 that the jails out here are like Surfers Paradise compared to some of the Yankee prisons though, I have seen some documentaries on YouTube about the most violent prisons in America, and let me tell you, they are some of the most dirtiest places on earth, that's not to mention the groups that are in there, Hispanics, Mexicans, Blacks, etc etc.. you also have to be very careful about who you mix with, if you are white you have to stay in your own group, because mixing with the other groups you could get stabbed, or worse!
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

If David Peters chooses to stay in motels which are of a lower standard than a prison, that's his choice to make.

Prisons should be clean, safe and well maintained. Not because of what failing to do that would say about the prisoners who are to live there, but because of what failing to do that would say about the society which deems that acceptable.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Keeping a person in gaol is not cheap. I would be happy to start a gofundme to pay for the expenses associated with allowing Mr Peters a week’s stay in a detention facility of his choice so that he can benefit in full from the gaol’s stunning ammenities.

My bet for Pell tomorrow, verdict upheld.

Either way, this is going to a High Court appeal.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Keeping a person in gaol is not cheap. I would be happy to start a gofundme to pay for the expenses associated with allowing Mr Peters a week’s stay in a detention facility of his choice so that he can benefit in full from the gaol’s stunning ammenities.
Aaron
I'd contribute, and offer an extra $50 if he can be tasered first.

My bet for Pell tomorrow, verdict upheld.

Either way, this is going to a High Court appeal.
Aaron
I reckon the verdict will be upheld but wouldn't be surprised if there is a small reduction to the sentence (edit: I forgot that the sentence is not being contested).

I agree about there being at least an application to take it to the High Court, but would be surprised if the High Court grants the special leave to hear the appeal.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Appeal rejected 2:1
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Interesting it is was not unanimous.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
No, not unanimous, but a 67% majority is well good enough!

I don’t have the stats at hand but appeals court decisions mostly go either way on a majority rule, unanimous either way is the rarer outcome.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

It'll definitely go to the High Court.

I think a significant factor was his closeness to known and proven evil priests/predators in the Ballarat Diocese.

But I'll park this here for posterity:
https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/qed/2019/04/the-fanciful-testimony-that-convicted-george-pell/
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So two similar crimes cannot be committed independently Carnot?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

So two similar crimes cannot be committed independently Carnot?
Aaron
The issue is more to do with psychology and whether the accuser's testimony was "borrowed".

In all honesty I'm rather agnostic about whether Pell did what he was accused of doing.  He knows the truth, and he is ultimately accountable to God.  If he did do it, then there's a warning for that:
"it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Well what’s your takenon the psychology of Pell maintaining his innocence whilst also effectively saying ‘6 years is fair enough’?

Surely a truly innocent man would also see any penalty for something they were not guilty of as unjust?

Were I falsely accused/convicted to spend even a couple of days in custody I would appeal both the trial/verdict and the penalty.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The Roman Catholic Church has spent a lot of effort trying to paint the surviving witness as a snotty-nosed choir boy bent on revenge. It may be that the witness got on with his life, rather than turn to drugs, and is now a respected member of the community, eg barrister (or SC), surgeon or even a high-ranking church official. In other words, someone who has a lot to lose by perjury or lying.

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