Sydenham Metro conversion project controversy

 
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Firstly, as sims has already pointed out, it's unrealistic to expect commuters north of Cabramatta on the South Line to back-track to Cabramatta or Liverpool to interchange to the currently planned metro at Bankstown or any possible extension to Liverpool.  A Y link at Cabramatta would be a waste, just as it was with the proposed Y link from Casula to the East Hills Line.  They realistically have no option but to travel to the CBD via Granville and the Western Line corridor.  Expecting them to travel to Parramatta via T5 and change to T1 to the CBD is naïve to say the least.

Just like everything with this Government's metro agenda, it's planning on the run and they've never really sat down and thought things through, particularly in how it impacts on the current rail network.  Although I've never been in favour of the Bankstown Line conversion to metro, when there were other options, if it proceeds as seems likely, then it would have been preferable if they had stuck to their original proposal to also convert the existing lines beyond Bankstown to Cabramatta and Lidcombe to metro.  It would have avoided the ridiculous situation now faced by some who will be cut off from a direct train service to the CBD without interchanging to the metro.  Again, as an example of not thinking things through, if they had also proposed extending the metro from Cabramatta to Liverpool as a quad extension to the existing line, then it may have received far broader community acceptance.
Sim's didn't read what I said, so don't quote him.

No, I disagree there is no option and I'm not saying force them but if you can offer a comparable or faster time, why not?

It gets down to practicality and overall cost. How much would it cost to build the sexup from Lidcombe as well as the numerous other works required to accommodate what is a relatively low traffic flow vs how much does it cost to go the other way and can you do it faster or similar. The previous govt did pretty much the same thing at Lidcombe.

I never said change at Paramatta to head to the city, I said build a 5th platform at Granville, again repeating what occured for Lidcombe. However provided you provide a comparable similar or better services via Bankstown, then no problem. Ignoring the Metro for now, the Western Corridor is congested, inefficient, overloaded and in many areas expensive to expand. Where as the Bankstown line is the opposite. Built the Y, Quad part of the corridor and get them to work faster or similar to now. Makes any future work on the western corridor simpler.


Back to the Metro, at a guess it was cut short for a few reasons and while I cannot blame them for doing so, I do not think 5 years later that still no solution on the table is acceptable. I think it was canned because
- Tunnel faced unknown costs
- Patronage is not that high
- Going via Sefton is too slow
- Leaving Sefton DD leaves open the option of a future route via Lidcombe again
- Potential for LR conversion (god help us if this happened)
- Cost, the route to Bankstown was already $10B, another $2B to do the rest is pushing the friendship of the budget.
- Timing, too far in the future, save the announcement for another day.

However, as I said there needs to be a solution proposed soon and I suspect the next election maybe it.
RTT_Rules
Sorry I may be a little bit slow on the uptake, but I don't quite get what you mean in saying that sims was not reading what you previously said about T5.  If you're referring to your suggested Y link north of Cabramatta to allow commuters on the South Line between Cabramatta and Granville to backtrack to Bankstown and interchange to the metro, then I've already expressed my view that it would be a waste.  In respect of T5 continuing to Parramatta, or alternatively some services terminating at a new platform at Granville, either way, forcing interchange to T1 isn't exactly going to go down well with the locals, who previously would have enjoyed a direct service to the CBD.  Realistically, that's never going to happen, when some of the seats in this area are now more marginal.  Parramatta is already a Liberal held seat.

Building the sextup is not just about providing extra capacity on the South Line via Regents Park or Granville.  In fact that's just a by-product of amplifying the Western Line corridor from Parramatta to the CBD, which provides the most benefit to that heavily congested corridor as well as the Northern Line.  The previous Labor government's Clearways program to provide turn-backs at Homebush and Lidcombe, welcome as it was at the time to provide some relief on the Western Line, is only a short-term fix.  They should also have taken a longer term view, in conjunction with their Western Express proposal, to complete sextuplication between Homebush and Parramatta.  If that had happened, we wouldn't even be having this discussion now about Metro West, which would be pushed further into the future.

With increasing pressure on the State budget and the prospect of selling off more State assets looking a lot thinner, it is questionable whether many of these metro proposals will get off the ground, at least in the time-frame suggested, and that includes an extension from Bankstown to Liverpool.  Sooner or later, the increasing congestion on the existing network because of the rising patronage is going to force the hand of the government of the day, of whatever persuasion, to re-direct greater funding to address its deficiencies and delay further investment in expanding the metro system, which will also be needed in the future.  It's all a question of priorities, rather than one replacing the other.

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

As I said before I think if you built the Metro to Liverpool the need for SW services via Granville would mostly evaporate or at least their termination would be manageable and you could run 6 trains per hour via Reagents Park and Lidcombe.
RTT_Rules
Maybe you can explain to me RTT how I misinterpreted this? In addition to you again misspelling a Sydney suburbs name.

I like the idea of extending the metro to the y junction and onwards to Cabramatta and Liverpool separate to the Sydney trains line. There is scope to do this and still provide separation. After the debacle of the light rail construction and seeing how slow the new service is the conversion to light rail of the y junction is a dead donkey as far as I can see. But as far as I can tell the best thing to do is to run more frequent services between Liverpool and Bankstown to overcome the interchange issues at Bankstown. Freight can be moved on to a duplicated ssfl
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Speaking of Metro. Another month another tunnel break through!!! https://www.facebook.com/SydneyMetro/videos/974423792933069/
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
simstrain
I'll readily admit that I'm not completely up to date on this, but isn't the SSFL already a bi-directional line separating freight from the Sydney Trains tracks?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I'll readily admit that I'm not completely up to date on this, but isn't the SSFL already a bi-directional line separating freight from the Sydney Trains tracks?
Transtopic
Not all freight uses the ssfl. Freight still uses the non ARTC tracks from minto to get to port and so do trains to the facility at Yennora. What the SSFL does at the moment is provide access to the new intermodal at moorebank and a path through south western sydney in peak hour. It is mostly used by trains that will be diverted on to the inland when that opens.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

An idea I had for the Liverpool problem, is maybe via Chullora.  33.5km from Liverpool to Central that way.  

Possible stopping pattern:

Liverpool
WFarm
Cabbr
Campsite (maybe)
Sydenham
Redfern
Central

A 30min transit time, 10min freq should be possible given most of the alignment is straight.

Obviously it needs work in a few places, and is contingent on a continued decline in Rail Freight.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

An idea I had for the Liverpool problem, is maybe via Chullora.  33.5km from Liverpool to Central that way.  

Possible stopping pattern:

Liverpool
WFarm
Cabbr
Campsie (maybe)
Sydenham
Redfern
Central

A 30min transit time, 10min freq should be possible given most of the alignment is straight.

Obviously it needs work in a few places, and is contingent on a continued decline in Rail Freight.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

An idea I had for the Liverpool problem, is maybe via Chullora.  33.5km from Liverpool to Central that way.  

Possible stopping pattern:

Liverpool
WFarm
Cabbr
Campsie (maybe)
Sydenham
Redfern
Central

A 30min transit time, 10min freq should be possible given most of the alignment is straight.

Obviously it needs work in a few places, and is contingent on a continued decline in Rail Freight.
djf01
"a continued decline in rail freight"...... The only problem with that is that tonnages have probably doubled since the opening of the SSFL. Governments don't propose additional passing loops if traffic is declining.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I'm not sure where your getting your doubling of tonnages since the SSFL opened FZR. Maybe you have some documentation to back that up. The moorebank intermodal does provide the ability to increase tonnages but all that the SSFL has done up to now is move trains in and out of enfield / chullora to the south west of Sydney that would have previously been held up during curfew hours. The same trains are still coming through post ssfl as they were pre ssfl. They still get held up by the curfew on the northern part of the Sydney network with the only difference being no hold up between macarthur and sefton. The minto intermodals never used the ssfl and neither do the yennora, enfield and chullora intermodals.

DJF, the section of track via chullora is under the control of the ARTC and the overhead is either missing or unpowered. Electric trains can not go via that route and the ARTC signalling is not setup for electric passenger trains. The track has also been let go and is as bad as the vic north east. The bankstown and metropolitan freight line is probably the best place in the country to see how poor ARTC track is vs good railcorp / sydney trains track. There is also no overhead through the XPT maintenance facility to allow a connection back on to the illawarra line.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

I'm not sure where your getting your doubling of tonnages since the SSFL opened FZR. Maybe you have some documentation to back that up. The moorebank intermodal does provide the ability to increase tonnages but all that the SSFL has done up to now is move trains in and out of enfield / chullora to the south west of Sydney that would have previously been held up during curfew hours. The same trains are still coming through post ssfl as they were pre ssfl. They still get held up by the curfew on the northern part of the Sydney network with the only difference being no hold up between macarthur and sefton. The minto intermodals never used the ssfl and neither do the yennora, enfield and chullora intermodals.

DJF, the section of track via chullora is under the control of the ARTC and the overhead is either missing or unpowered. Electric trains can not go via that route and the ARTC signalling is not setup for electric passenger trains. The track has also been let go and is as bad as the vic north east. The bankstown and metropolitan freight line is probably the best place in the country to see how poor ARTC track is vs good railcorp / sydney trains track. There is also no overhead through the XPT maintenance facility to allow a connection back on to the illawarra line.
simstrain
No documentation. Since the opening of the SSFL there are, 6 additional stone trains, 1 additional garbage, 1 additional containerised log train, the Harefield Intermodal plus whatever new traffic has been generated by Moorebank. There's probably more, but that's enough to justify the original statement. As far as quality of track goes, the metro goods line is currently in better nick than it has been for 10 years.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No documentation. Since the opening of the SSFL there are, 6 additional stone trains, 1 additional garbage, 1 additional containerised log train, the Harefield Intermodal plus whatever new traffic has been generated by Moorebank. There's probably more, but that's enough to justify the original statement. As far as quality of track goes, the metro goods line is currently in better nick than it has been for 10 years.
fzr560

No that isn't anywhere near enough to justify your original statement. It is nice and all but it hasn't put a dent in the Sydney Melbourne freight trade and it certainly isn't a doubling. In any case it has been offset by the loss of the aurizon Brisbane to Melbourne trains.

The metro goods line didn't look so good when I went past it the other day. Still rolls like a roller coaster with massive mud holes. Sydney trains has had to invest a fortune in to drainage to offset the lack of maintainence done by the ARTC.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

No documentation. Since the opening of the SSFL there are, 6 additional stone trains, 1 additional garbage, 1 additional containerised log train, the Harefield Intermodal plus whatever new traffic has been generated by Moorebank. There's probably more, but that's enough to justify the original statement. As far as quality of track goes, the metro goods line is currently in better nick than it has been for 10 years.

No that isn't anywhere near enough to justify your original statement. It is nice and all but it hasn't put a dent in the Sydney Melbourne freight trade and it certainly isn't a doubling. In any case it has been offset by the loss of the aurizon Brisbane to Melbourne trains.

The metro goods line didn't look so good when I went past it the other day. Still rolls like a roller coaster with massive mud holes. Sydney trains has had to invest a fortune in to drainage to offset the lack of maintainence done by the ARTC.
simstrain
Running a passenger service along a dedicated freight line that is approaching capacity is a really bad idea. End of.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Running a passenger service along a dedicated freight line that is approaching capacity is a really bad idea. End of.
fzr560

No-one ever suggested running a passenger service on a dedicated freight line "approaching capacity".
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The ssfl and metropolitan freight line are not anywhere near capacity fzr. the metro freight is hamstrung by single track sections near the airport which is in the process of being fixed and the ssfl can go hours without so much as a single train on it.

In regards to metro and seeing as skyrail was used in the north west. I'm wondering if skyrailing between marrickville and bankstown might be a viable option. I just saw an article on facebook about monorail and how cheap it is vs metro but knowing the aversion that monorail has I dare not suggest that mode of transport. https://www.monorailsaustralia.com.au/ Instead there should be opportunity to put the metro on skyrail along this corridor.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

In regards to metro and seeing as skyrail was used in the north west. I'm wondering if skyrailing between marrickville and bankstown might be a viable option. I just saw an article on facebook about monorail and how cheap it is vs metro but knowing the aversion that monorail has I dare not suggest that mode of transport.

https://www.monorailsaustralia.com.au/ Instead there should be opportunity to put the metro on skyrail along this corridor.
simstrain

I recently saw a documentary that also very effectively argued the case for skyrail.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGg5rfBfWT4
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Skyrail as in what was built on the north west metro and not monorail. building the metro on skyrail from marrickville to bankstown would relieve the existing line instead of taking it over.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Skyrail as in what was built on the north west metro and not monorail. building the metro on skyrail from marrickville to bankstown would relieve the existing line instead of taking it over.
simstrain
Equally a waste of money when you have a perfectly good pair of underutilized pair of tracks and for about half the corridor sufficient space to expand to 4 tracks.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Equally a waste of money when you have a perfectly good pair of underutilized pair of tracks and for about half the corridor sufficient space to expand to 4 tracks.
RTT_Rules

And the other half of the corridor already has 4 tracks!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Equally a waste of money when you have a perfectly good pair of underutilized pair of tracks and for about half the corridor sufficient space to expand to 4 tracks.

And the other half of the corridor already has 4 tracks!
djf01
for freight, I think they should be kept separate.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Equally a waste of money when you have a perfectly good pair of underutilized pair of tracks and for about half the corridor sufficient space to expand to 4 tracks.

And the other half of the corridor already has 4 tracks!
djf01

Half of those tracks are completely separate from the sydney trains system and not available for passenger traffic.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Skyrail as in what was built on the north west metro and not monorail. building the metro on skyrail from marrickville to bankstown would relieve the existing line instead of taking it over.
Equally a waste of money when you have a perfectly good pair of underutilized pair of tracks and for about half the corridor sufficient space to expand to 4 tracks.
RTT_Rules

As mentioned the metro screws over people west of bankstown and adding the skyrail between this section would allow the new capacity while relieving the T2 inner west of T2 leppington services. It would also help filling in the spots on the outer circle that can't be filled because of the different stopping patterns of the T2 inner west, T2 parramatta and T2 leppington services.

I am not sure where you are expanding to 6 tracks alongside the current T3 / sydney metro freight line along the ground?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Skyrail as in what was built on the north west metro and not monorail. building the metro on skyrail from marrickville to bankstown would relieve the existing line instead of taking it over.
Equally a waste of money when you have a perfectly good pair of underutilized pair of tracks and for about half the corridor sufficient space to expand to 4 tracks.

As mentioned the metro screws over people west of bankstown and adding the skyrail between this section would allow the new capacity while relieving the T2 inner west of T2 leppington services. It would also help filling in the spots on the outer circle that can't be filled because of the different stopping patterns of the T2 inner west, T2 parramatta and T2 leppington services.

I am not sure where you are expanding to 6 tracks alongside the current T3 / sydney metro freight line along the ground?
simstrain
Again Sky rail is unnecessary and a waste of money and achieves only a small fraction if that better than now.

Two tracks past the freight lines, expand the corridor to 4 tracks beyond to Bankstown with the new tracks being express services only and no platforms apart from Bankstown after which they continue to Liverpool direct. The all stoppers only continue to Bankstown.

DD's then run from the western corridor as they do now to Liverpool but also Bankstown.

Or you could convert the "Y" to full Metro fed from the express Metro's.

You can do this for either Metro or DD, but if DD where do you go from there? The Metro tunnel provides the obvious connection for the Metro and the whole line if infinitely better off.

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