It's the economy, stupid!

 
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I challenge you to find where I have ever - EVER - called the Liberal Party 'superior economic managers'.
Nobody said you did.  The Libs say it all the time. Presumably anyone who embraces the Libs would believe it.
I just assumed all LNP supporters like Don thought that.

I have to look up Fabians for their number.

Unlike Don I have no reason to "hate" the mob he vocally doesn't not support. I don't think the LNP are particularly better at managing anything but they are more politically savvy.
Groundrelay
The Labor Party don't stand for anything - they gave up their support of the working class under Hawke and Keating and they've been struggling to find relevancy ever since. Apart from the disastrous aberration of Rudd/Gillard/Rudd we've had LNP governments in Canberra now for 18 of the last 24 years - not even the LNP revolving door of Prime Ministers could force people to vote Labor.

If they actually picked up a policy that I could agree with then I'd consider voting for them (again), until then they'll continue to actually hate the people they're supposed to represent because they don't consider the (mostly white, uneducated) working class worthy of any kind of help. Terminally lost.

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  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
The Labor Party don't stand for anything - they gave up their support of the working class under Hawke and Keating and they've been struggling to find relevancy ever since. Apart from the disastrous aberration of Rudd/Gillard/Rudd we've had LNP governments in Canberra now for 18 of the last 24 years - not even the LNP revolving door of Prime Ministers could force people to vote Labor.

If they actually picked up a policy that I could agree with then I'd consider voting for them (again), until then they'll continue to actually hate the people they're supposed to represent because they don't consider the (mostly white, uneducated) working class worthy of any kind of help. Terminally lost.
don_dunstan
Absolute BS.
However I should thank you because the LNP won and Labor won't go near franking credits again. As someone who worked too hard to qualify for welfare between jobs I should hate Labor as much as you do. I should be your typical 'F off I'm alright' conservative.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

The Labor Party don't stand for anything - they gave up their support of the working class under Hawke and Keating and they've been struggling to find relevancy ever since. Apart from the disastrous aberration of Rudd/Gillard/Rudd we've had LNP governments in Canberra now for 18 of the last 24 years - not even the LNP revolving door of Prime Ministers could force people to vote Labor.

If they actually picked up a policy that I could agree with then I'd consider voting for them (again), until then they'll continue to actually hate the people they're supposed to represent because they don't consider the (mostly white, uneducated) working class worthy of any kind of help. Terminally lost.
Absolute BS.
However I should thank you because the LNP won and Labor won't go near franking credits again. As someone who worked too hard to qualify for welfare between jobs I should hate Labor as much as you do. I should be your typical 'F off I'm alright' conservative.
Groundrelay
Don. What drugs are you on. Must be some sort of political LSD that lets you see what you want to. For instance, your recent comments about Julia Gillard are just plainly silly and incorrect.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Absolute BS.
However I should thank you because the LNP won and Labor won't go near franking credits again. As someone who worked too hard to qualify for welfare between jobs I should hate Labor as much as you do. I should be your typical 'F off I'm alright' conservative.
Groundrelay
Don. What drugs are you on. Must be some sort of political LSD that lets you see what you want to. For instance, your recent comments about Julia Gillard are just plainly silly and incorrect.
nswtrains
Comrade Groundrelay; blame Costello for giving retired people free money that was supposed to be a tax refund (on tax that wasn't paid anyway). It's impossible to take free money away from (particularly retirees) once you've started giving it to them.

nswtrains; Gillard was a weak, back-stabbing serial incompetent Prime Minister - terrible that we had to endure the stewardship of that woman as our first female PM.

Maybe we should take this to the Scott Morrison thread as the politics is spilling all across "The Lounge" at the moment!
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Back to the economy: Found a reference for Australian GDP per capita here.

It was at a high of USD $68,767 (around AUD $90,000 in 2013) and has been as low recently as USD $50,396 in 2016 (AUD $77,000) but is presently bouncing around $55,000 (AUD $79,000). So yes, GDP per Australian has fallen substantially under the current Liberal-National Party government but it has recovered slightly in the last few years.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Maybe we should take this to the Scott Morrison thread as the politics is spilling all across "The Lounge" at the moment!
don_dunstan
'Where the bloody hell are you' is irrelevant. PMs change but the underlying ideology of each side remains the same.

LNP version of socialism works in my favour. Is it right? Very much so!. Anyone wanting to get as much as possible from the Government whilst paying as little tax as possible would be crazy not to vote for your side.

The Libs will do well in the mortgage belts as long as voters aspire to a MacMansion, a novated lease SUV or Ute, a boat and/or jet ski.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
'Where the bloody hell are you' is irrelevant. PMs change but the underlying ideology of each side remains the same.
Groundrelay

I'm glad to see we can finally agree on something. In which case my inevitable response is "what does the Labor Party have to lose by pulling back from globalisation?" Why don't they stop pandering to the minority of woke voters in inner Melbourne and Sydney (by and large) and try and win back the majority of working poor in the exurbs by promising to increase access to jobs?
LNP version of socialism works in my favour. Is it right? Very much so!. Anyone wanting to get as much as possible from the Government whilst paying as little tax as possible would be crazy not to vote for your side.

The Libs will do well in the mortgage belts as long as voters aspire to a MacMansion, a novated lease SUV or Ute, a boat and/or jet ski.
Groundrelay
Yeah but ultimately it's debt that the underlying issue - we have world-beating form on that with our household indebtedness and spending much more than we earn. There's some significant structural issues that'll have to come to a head in Australia in the next few years, even record low interest rates can't paper over that problem forever.

Compare our current era to that of Menzies (Playford, Bolte) - record participation in the workforce, very low unemployment and at one stage almost three quarters of Australians were home-owners. Considering Menzies was a Liberal he actually made sure that the prosperity was generally shared - despite being overtly anti-union.

What do either of the modern political parties have that will help the working poor into greater participation in the Aussie dream?
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
What do either of the modern political parties have that will help the working poor into greater participation in the Aussie dream?
don_dunstan
Well, the current mob have nothing at all. it is employers that hold the whip hand at the moment, demanding longer and longer working weeks from the fewer and fewer (in % terms) in the workforce. As long as company profits keep rising and the subsequent kickbacks keep rolling in, ScoMo will just keep sleeping at the wheel.

The other side may or may not be different at all...we won't know unless you vote for them...but one tiny difference might be that the oft talked about $75 weekly increase to Newstart, which will only cost a fraction of proposed savings made from upper class welfare clawback, will actually be spent, growing the economic pie and creating the opportunities for the greater participation that you crave.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
'Where the bloody hell are you' is irrelevant. PMs change but the underlying ideology of each side remains the same.

I'm glad to see we can finally agree on something. In which case my inevitable response is "what does the Labor Party have to lose by pulling back from globalisation?" Why don't they stop pandering to the minority of woke voters in inner Melbourne and Sydney (by and large) and try and win back the majority of working poor in the exurbs by promising to increase access to jobs?
LNP version of socialism works in my favour. Is it right? Very much so!. Anyone wanting to get as much as possible from the Government whilst paying as little tax as possible would be crazy not to vote for your side.

The Libs will do well in the mortgage belts as long as voters aspire to a MacMansion, a novated lease SUV or Ute, a boat and/or jet ski.
Yeah but ultimately it's debt that the underlying issue - we have world-beating form on that with our household indebtedness and spending much more than we earn. There's some significant structural issues that'll have to come to a head in Australia in the next few years, even record low interest rates can't paper over that problem forever.

Compare our current era to that of Menzies (Playford, Bolte) - record participation in the workforce, very low unemployment and at one stage almost three quarters of Australians were home-owners. Considering Menzies was a Liberal he actually made sure that the prosperity was generally shared - despite being overtly anti-union.

What do either of the modern political parties have that will help the working poor into greater participation in the Aussie dream?
don_dunstan
I hate the fact this country has a cargo cult mentality, always bending over for another country to buy our stuff but we rely on trade. Menzies had it easy as the world recovered from WW2 and we had millions of sheep, he didn't set us up for what was coming! Fast forward 20 years and the world is changing as trade barriers are being negotiated away and we face competition in many markets (and they stopped buying wool).
I'm a realist. We would have ended up the capitalist worlds version of Albania.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
What do either of the modern political parties have that will help the working poor into greater participation in the Aussie dream?
Well, the current mob have nothing at all. it is employers that hold the whip hand at the moment, demanding longer and longer working weeks from the fewer and fewer (in % terms) in the workforce. As long as company profits keep rising and the subsequent kickbacks keep rolling in, ScoMo will just keep sleeping at the wheel.

The other side may or may not be different at all...we won't know unless you vote for them...but one tiny difference might be that the oft talked about $75 weekly increase to Newstart, which will only cost a fraction of proposed savings made from upper class welfare clawback, will actually be spent, growing the economic pie and creating the opportunities for the greater participation that you crave.
DirtyBallast
It was always working class people with good jobs keeping the whole nation going - the problem with our late stage Thatcherism is that you've screwed the hand-to-mouth people so much that they can't possibly pay any more taxes because they just don't have the money coming in that they used to. Hence GST revenues down by some $600,000,000 and income tax take completely static.

If you want an explanation of why we've been so prosperous in the last seven years when wages haven't been growing then look no further than the huge growth in taxation at all levels of government as outlined here; in just five years from 2013-2018 local government rates went from $14 billion to $18 billion, state government taxation/revenues grew by $19 billion to $84 billion (up 22%) and the Commonwealth's taxes grew by a whopping $90 billion p/a from $347 billion to $437 billion, up a whopping 21%.

That's just a five year slice mind you - but a massive part of the tax-and-spend equation is that the people paying the most amounts of tax are themselves maxed out and can't spend any more because their incomes have hit the wall - shown in this latest Parliamentary Hansard projection showing growth in Commonwealth revenues projected to increase about $20 billion a year - impossible when you consider income tax (the largest single revenue item) has been completely static for a few years now. Which means that in order to keep spending they'll have to borrow yet more money... and on it goes.

The solution isn't to give the Dole people or pensioners more money - they desperately need to create quality, well paying jobs where workers have the capacity to pay increasing taxes but of course all the policy settings from Hawke/Keating onwards have been about knee-capping the semi-skilled and unskilled and forcing them into unstable, low-pay service industry jobs - not conductive to increasing income tax revenue at all.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean

The solution isn't to give the Dole people or pensioners more money - they desperately need to create quality, well paying jobs where workers have the capacity to pay increasing taxes but of course all the policy settings from Hawke/Keating onwards have been about knee-capping the semi-skilled and unskilled and forcing them into unstable, low-pay service industry jobs - not conductive to increasing income tax revenue at all.
don_dunstan
And you and I both know that the only way the current mob are propping up the economy is to import people and create demand.

I expect that you won't ever get over Hawke/Keating, even though it was decades ago. More damaging to the country in a literal sense was Pig Iron Bob five decades earlier and the reason he was given that nickname.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
And you and I both know that the only way the current mob are propping up the economy is to import people and create demand.
DirtyBallast
Which was the only plan that Rudd/Gillard/Rudd had apart from conniving and stabbing each other. Gillard gave 457's to Hungry Jacks and KFC to import 'skilled' restaurant managers from Nepal - a job you'd normally give to a young Australian school leaver to be trained in - someone who isn't suited to university. The most disadvantaged people in other words. If ever you needed an image of a sell-out of the most marginalised Australians by Labor its right there.
I expect that you won't ever get over Hawke/Keating, even though it was decades ago. More damaging to the country in a literal sense was Pig Iron Bob five decades earlier and the reason he was given that nickname.
DirtyBallast
Well the Labor Party is still venerating the very people who caused their descent into irrelevancy so there's no chance of them learning any lessons right now. God help us if they ever get back into office again because the entire nation will be broke in a nano-second given their record of taxing and spending even harder than the current LNP government. Hard to imagine I know - given the LNP federal government has been increasing taxation of ordinary Australians at a rate of about 4.5% p/a (much more than inflation).  It'll be Keynesian orgy followed by abrupt collapse when the credit taps finally get turned off or the money printing causes runaway inflation - one of the two.

Speaking of economic end-games - there's a lot of signs that China's run of making credit and printing their way forward is almost done - GS Economics;

At the end of 2018, the budget deficit of the Chinese government was close to five percent. However, if the off-balance sheet (“shadow”) financing of local governments is taken into consideration, the budget deficit rises to over 11 percent. At the end of 2014, the official government deficit was less than one percent, but an accounting which includes local “shadow” funding was around five percent.

This effectively means that China is fiscally unable to underwrite massive infrastructure projects and so any new world-economy-saving stimulus from China, as in 2015/2016, will be practically impossible. A new infrastructure initiative could only be realized if its costs are monetized by the PBoC, and so should be regarded as a last-ditch option reserved for an existential crisis. We also suspect that Chinese authorities would like to have some ‘ammunition’ left over for an actual recession.

Interesting to see what might happen here in Australia if the Chinese dragon finally falters - they're over a quarter of our export markets aren't they?
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Well the Labor Party is still venerating the very people who caused their descent into irrelevancy so there's no chance of them learning any lessons right now. God help us if they ever get back into office
don_dunstan
And still bashing that can.
Here's the thing about your paragraphs of one sided repetitious rants. Anyone who agrees with you is already converted to your side and therefore it's rather pointless except as some sort of self therapy.
Everyone else is just rolling their eyes and deciding whether it's worth their time responding.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
And you and I both know that the only way the current mob are propping up the economy is to import people and create demand.

I expect that you won't ever get over Hawke/Keating, even though it was decades ago. More damaging to the country in a literal sense was Pig Iron Bob five decades earlier and the reason he was given that nickname.
DirtyBallast
Immigration has been the back bone of the economy for the last 230 years, why change now?

An economy of zero population growth will sustain their standard of living with zero GDP growth%.

As Australia is already near the top of the pile is standard of living, disposal income, etc (even if people don't want to believe it). Then if we had zero population growth how much more GDP would you expect?

Once unemployment reaches what is considered full employment (Does not equal zero unemployed) with zero population growth and in the top 5-10 countries in the world, the growth opportunities from there are limited and most of the work is to sustain. Monaco and Luxembourg maintain their abnormally high standards of living through importation of lower income day workers.

Personal opinion, population growth needs to be slowed over the coming years so we max out at 30m people. Immigration is then only replacement above the below replacement birth rate and social welfare to large families wound back to the first live pregnancy and only with half payments to the 2nd live birth pregnancy and zero beyond. The world and Australia doesn't need govt funded human breeding programs.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
And you and I both know that the only way the current mob are propping up the economy is to import people and create demand.

I expect that you won't ever get over Hawke/Keating, even though it was decades ago. More damaging to the country in a literal sense was Pig Iron Bob five decades earlier and the reason he was given that nickname.
Immigration has been the back bone of the economy for the last 230 years, why change now?

An economy of zero population growth will sustain their standard of living with zero GDP growth%.

As Australia is already near the top of the pile is standard of living, disposal income, etc (even if people don't want to believe it). Then if we had zero population growth how much more GDP would you expect?

Once unemployment reaches what is considered full employment (Does not equal zero unemployed) with zero population growth and in the top 5-10 countries in the world, the growth opportunities from there are limited and most of the work is to sustain. Monaco and Luxembourg maintain their abnormally high standards of living through importation of lower income day workers.

Personal opinion, population growth needs to be slowed over the coming years so we max out at 30m people. Immigration is then only replacement above the below replacement birth rate and social welfare to large families wound back to the first live pregnancy and only with half payments to the 2nd live birth pregnancy and zero beyond. The world and Australia doesn't need govt funded human breeding programs.
RTT_Rules
Note: GDP is a crap measure, which I suspect you might already acknowledge.

I've been asking myself lately, why is growth even important?

If we could go back to the days when sole breadwinners in average paid jobs could afford mortgage repayments, and all that needs to happen to make people happy is to have a Sunday arvo barby and kick a footy with their kids in the back yard, what has been the point of growth since then?
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I have witnessed first hand how increasing immigration has changed the whole cultural fabric of existing communities, which only creates inter-racial and cultural tension.  I'm not against immigration per se, but it should be at a more moderate level to allow harmonious integration with existing communities, rather than being a slave to growth.  The other issue is our inability to keep up with the level of expenditure on infrastructure to service this population growth.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I have witnessed first hand how increasing immigration has changed the whole cultural fabric of existing communities, which only creates inter-racial and cultural tension.  I'm not against immigration per se, but it should be at a more moderate level to allow harmonious integration with existing communities, rather than being a slave to growth.  The other issue is our inability to keep up with the level of expenditure on infrastructure to service this population growth.
Transtopic
I was wondering how long it would before someone raised the race angle on this topic. There is always some bogeyman to scare the gullible. First it was reds under the bed and now its boat people. Its all designed to raise xenophobia levels and keep the red necks in power.

In Sydney I am not aware of any major problems with immigrants integrating into the community except the few that the Daily Telecrap manages to dredge up to keep xenophobia bubbling along.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Well the Labor Party is still venerating the very people who caused their descent into irrelevancy so there's no chance of them learning any lessons right now. God help us if they ever get back into office
And still bashing that can.
Here's the thing about your paragraphs of one sided repetitious rants. Anyone who agrees with you is already converted to your side and therefore it's rather pointless except as some sort of self therapy.
Everyone else is just rolling their eyes and deciding whether it's worth their time responding.
Groundrelay
As long as silly people like you keep holding them up as a legitimate alternative government (which they're not) then I will have to keep reminding people of how incompetent and disconnected from reality they are... and of how bad they were the last time they were in office.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Immigration has been the back bone of the economy for the last 230 years, why change now?

An economy of zero population growth will sustain their standard of living with zero GDP growth%.
RTT_Rules
Sydney and Melbourne both have water shortages, are both reliant on expensive and carbon intensive desalinated water.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I have witnessed first hand how increasing immigration has changed the whole cultural fabric of existing communities, which only creates inter-racial and cultural tension.  I'm not against immigration per se, but it should be at a more moderate level to allow harmonious integration with existing communities, rather than being a slave to growth.  The other issue is our inability to keep up with the level of expenditure on infrastructure to service this population growth.
Transtopic
NSW and VIC governments are both BROKE, both governments have run out of things to privatise and are going deeply into debt to keep up with growth. This is in no way sustainable.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Note: GDP is a crap measure, which I suspect you might already acknowledge.

I've been asking myself lately, why is growth even important?

If we could go back to the days when sole breadwinners in average paid jobs could afford mortgage repayments, and all that needs to happen to make people happy is to have a Sunday arvo barby and kick a footy with their kids in the back yard, what has been the point of growth since then?
DirtyBallast
Because the people who are driving the politics are Gerry Harvey, Harry Triguboff, the Lew family et al. whose business models require unchecked and extremely high immigration in order to keep growing their profits. We really don't have a government managing this country in the best interests of the people, we have a plutocracy governing for themselves. And the fact that Julia Gillard and Rudd did nothing to change those settings when they were in office means that the ALP is just as captured as the LNP.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Immigration has been the back bone of the economy for the last 230 years, why change now?

An economy of zero population growth will sustain their standard of living with zero GDP growth%.
Sydney and Melbourne both have water shortages, are both reliant on expensive and carbon intensive desalinated water.
don_dunstan
Most of the country's desal plants are in operation now and most likely few will be turned off anytime soon. Its already been recognized Sydney's on trigger is likely too low. The plant is also been doubled in size.

Desal is energy intensive, but so is pumping water more than 100-150km, however you can off-set or reduce the CO2 emissions as they have in WA.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have witnessed first hand how increasing immigration has changed the whole cultural fabric of existing communities, which only creates inter-racial and cultural tension.  I'm not against immigration per se, but it should be at a more moderate level to allow harmonious integration with existing communities, rather than being a slave to growth.  The other issue is our inability to keep up with the level of expenditure on infrastructure to service this population growth.
NSW and VIC governments are both BROKE, both governments have run out of things to privatise and are going deeply into debt to keep up with growth. This is in no way sustainable.
don_dunstan
NSW is not broke or suffering from significant debt.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Note: GDP is a crap measure, which I suspect you might already acknowledge.

I've been asking myself lately, why is growth even important?

If we could go back to the days when sole breadwinners in average paid jobs could afford mortgage repayments, and all that needs to happen to make people happy is to have a Sunday arvo barby and kick a footy with their kids in the back yard, what has been the point of growth since then?
DirtyBallast
Actually no, its a measure of economical performance for a country, for which there are a number different measures and all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Back in the day of sole breadwinners you basically enslaved 50% of the adult population. The Sunday Arvo BBQ didn't make everyone happy and not everyone has kids anymore and wants more from life.

My parents never owned a car less than 10 years old, never flew on holidays, we were last to own a VCR but also little debt. My dad used to buy multiple broken lawnmowers or boat engines to make one that worked. He was a successful Engineer and my mum worked on and off over the years part-time for extra cash. My dad made his real money when they did a management buy out in his late 40's in the 1989 recession.

Today, I have friends doing trade type jobs or non-killed labour jobs, they have flown OS, drive new or newer cars, don't stuff around with ancient lawnmowers or boat engines.

So Comrade, yes growth is important! Soviet style approach of feeding the peasants alcohol and similar is best left in the Communist handbook.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
I have witnessed first hand how increasing immigration has changed the whole cultural fabric of existing communities, which only creates inter-racial and cultural tension.  I'm not against immigration per se, but it should be at a more moderate level to allow harmonious integration with existing communities, rather than being a slave to growth.  The other issue is our inability to keep up with the level of expenditure on infrastructure to service this population growth.
I was wondering how long it would before someone raised the race angle on this topic. There is always some bogeyman to scare the gullible. First it was reds under the bed and now its boat people. Its all designed to raise xenophobia levels and keep the red necks in power.

In Sydney I am not aware of any major problems with immigrants integrating into the community except the few that the Daily Telecrap manages to dredge up to keep xenophobia bubbling along.
nswtrains
Correct.

Those that complain the loudest about a lack of 'harmonious integration' are normally the ones least likely to do anything about it. They are least likely to employ a foreigner or befriend one at work to help them integrate. They are also least likely to befriend one outside of work. They are also least likely to acknowledge that they have done nothing to integrate harmoniously themselves, i.e. learn the didgeridoo or become fluent in the local native dialect. Hypocrites.

The failure of infrastructure to keep up has nothing to do with importing people as the issue would still remain if rapid population increases was solely due to organic growth. It was also an issue when population growth was much lower than today.

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