The corona virus COVID-19

 
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The Dutch government has announced that they are withdrawing all the money allocated to fighting climate change and are instead spending it on current and future pandemic prevention. Climate change activists are outraged (of course), but it looks like their own version of Armageddon got out-ranked by the present (much more realistic) Armageddon.

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  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
The Dutch government has announced that they are withdrawing all the money allocated to fighting climate change and are instead spending it on current and future pandemic prevention. Climate change activists are outraged (of course), but it looks like their own version of Armageddon got out-ranked by the present (much more realistic) Armageddon.
don_dunstan
Didn't I read here that Greta had the virus? Or was it just Relevance Deprivation Syndrome?
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
The Dutch government has announced that they are withdrawing all the money allocated to fighting climate change and are instead spending it on current and future pandemic prevention. Climate change activists are outraged (of course), but it looks like their own version of Armageddon got out-ranked by the present (much more realistic) Armageddon.
don_dunstan
Carbon emissions are seemingly quite down at the moment over Europe anyway....
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Two staff members at KMart Chadstone have tested positive to COVID-19.  I wouldn't go anywhere near that joint.  Apparently it was pretty crowded on the weekend...

  ANR Chief Commissioner

Two staff members at KMart Chadstone have tested positive to COVID-19.  I wouldn't go anywhere near that joint.  Apparently it was pretty crowded on the weekend...

Carnot
Didn't Daniel Andrews warn people not to go to Chadstone as the Stage 2 restrictions were being introduced and the kids were off school?

It is as if he knew something.
  rxclass Junior Train Controller

Location: On the manual turntable at Marino turning an exquisite Rx class steam locomotive.
Treasurer Frydenburg and Sco Mo announced a massive wage subsidy to keep people's jobs going worth $120,000,000,000. Astonishing - it now brings the total of our Commonwealth government liabilities to something like $750 billion - half our annual GDP. They've spent almost $220 billion just in the last month - mill that one over if you will! We're fast catching up with Japan and the United States with huge debts that can never, ever be repaid.
don_dunstan
G'day all,

One thing bothering me, shouldn't the shareholders of all these free market companies supply the needed funds to keep them in business instead of the taxpayer,

If the taxpayer is bailing them out, at the very least, when everything returns to normal the profits from these companies should pay back, at the minimum, the taxpayer bailout amount before shareholders, who have done nothing, receive their dividend.

Otherwise, you have the new capitalist dictum:-
Socialise the cost, privatise the profits.  

Regards,
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Very long bow to compare letting Ozzies into the country who might or die have a virus compared to illegal immigrants.

The left have a proven history of policy failure in this regard with over 50,000 illegals. What Billy may or maynot have done is pure speculative, but unlikely to have changed a great deal.
Most of us are talking about the management of a boat. You keep talking about illegal immigrants. OK, have it your way. If you want to compare numbers, why don't you tell the whole truth? Like the 100,000 illegals that have arrived by plane in the past five years? Or are you just going to talk about boats again?
The problem is that we have to take every single application for asylum seriously as per the International Convention on Refugees; we need to dump participation in those United Nations conventions that are causing too many problems.

I used to meet people when I was doing housing in Melbourne who were just taking the p*ss out the system - people who had applied for asylum from New Zealand and the United States simply because their existing visa had run out and they didn't want to go home - people who were from Malaysia or India and didn't want to go through the standard process of applying for an education visas; they just wanted to work for a few years so they could send money back home.

As it stands (present situation throwing it into hiatus of course) pretty much anyone can come from any part of the world and claim asylum once they get here and expect it will be at least two or three years before their case is heard - longer if they get one of those migration agents to drag it out for them. In the meantime they're allowed full work rights and are competing against lowly paid Australians for the few service industry jobs that are left.

A real deterrent would be to process those people as soon as they claim and deport them immediately if they don't have a prima facie case.
don_dunstan
I don't believe they take away jobs from Australians. More likely they do jobs that Australians won't do, or work in jobs that pay below award wages, which Australians would not accept.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Treasurer Frydenburg and Sco Mo announced a massive wage subsidy to keep people's jobs going worth $120,000,000,000. Astonishing - it now brings the total of our Commonwealth government liabilities to something like $750 billion - half our annual GDP. They've spent almost $220 billion just in the last month - mill that one over if you will! We're fast catching up with Japan and the United States with huge debts that can never, ever be repaid.
G'day all,

One thing bothering me, shouldn't the shareholders of all these free market companies supply the needed funds to keep them in business instead of the taxpayer,

If the taxpayer is bailing them out, at the very least, when everything returns to normal the profits from these companies should pay back, at the minimum, the taxpayer bailout amount before shareholders, who have done nothing, receive their dividend.

Otherwise, you have the new capitalist dictum:-
Socialise the cost, privatise the profits.  

Regards,
rxclass
Either way you view it they've made that decision now - so the taxpayers of the future are going to be paying to keep jobs that in many cases might not exist after all this is over.

My preference would have been for the government to loan small business the money HECS-style for them to pay back at a later date when they return to profitability. Larger companies could have seen the government take a stake in their operations or buy equity in them with that equity subsequently sold down the track when things return to normal.

Instead they've gone for the ultimate "free money" give-away which I really don't think is a good idea given how fast they're already growing government debt. We've gone from $250 billion gross government liabilities only ten years ago to $560 billion at the end of last year. Conservative estimates say that we've already added another $220-$250 billion to that just in the last month. By this time this is all over we could easily exceed $1 trillion in government liabilities.

This is real money - it's not imaginary - and they have to find a way of financing it that will probably be detrimental to the greater economy. Either print money or sell bonds - both of which have massive consequences.

Lucky country runs out of luck?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I don't believe they take away jobs from Australians. More likely they do jobs that Australians won't do, or work in jobs that pay below award wages, which Australians would not accept.
nswtrains
So 30-40 years ago when an employer couldn't find enough staff they usually had to up the amount of money they were paying to make the job more attractive. Now-days all they have to do is find backpackers, people on protection visas or foreign students willing to work for $12 an hour (or less) because those people don't complain when they're ill-treated or underpaid.

What sort of impact do you think that has on our overall living standards as a nation? What happens when your job is outsourced to someone willing to work for less than half of what you're making now - do you get angry about that or do you cut in half the amount of money you're prepared to accept in order to compete with those people?

The award system and our relatively high level of union membership protected people from underpayment and exploitation for nearly a century but has been progressively wound back since Hawke and Keating. We're now in a position where many industries don't have those protections or the majority of employers (for example in hospitality) actually don't pay award - Rockpool and George Calombaris being the rule rather than the exception.

That's why income tax receipts had not been growing at all for the last four or five years - because wages have actually been going backwards. There's all sorts of adverse consequences from allowing people to en mass undercut the awards system, not the least of which is the fact that we're all going to be poorer as a result.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

This instills confidence.
If it all goes to smeg, the happy clapper can blame the man upstairs.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUegbwTWkAMJquF?format=jpg&name=large
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville


Otherwise, you have the new capitalist dictum:-
Socialise the cost, privatise the profits.  

Regards,
rxclass

Nothing new about that at all. It's always been that way.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
The award system and our relatively high level of union membership protected people from underpayment and exploitation for nearly a century but has been progressively wound back since Hawke and Keating. We're now in a position where many industries don't have those protections or the majority of employers (for example in hospitality) actually don't pay award - Rockpool and George Calombaris being the rule rather than the exception.
don_dunstan
Australia would still be a workers paradise if Fraser and Howard were running the show during the age of Thatcherism. Go figure!!!
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The award system and our relatively high level of union membership protected people from underpayment and exploitation for nearly a century but has been progressively wound back since Hawke and Keating. We're now in a position where many industries don't have those protections or the majority of employers (for example in hospitality) actually don't pay award - Rockpool and George Calombaris being the rule rather than the exception.
Australia would still be a workers paradise if Fraser and Howard were running the show during the age of Thatcherism. Go figure!!!
Groundrelay
I said SINCE Hawke and Keating - which would by definition include Howard and his WorkChoices policy.

Fraser was practically a benevolent socialist in comparison to his latter peers.

EDIT: In fact Fraser was harangued around 1981 by his then treasurer Howard to follow the example of the 'revolutionary' Thatcher government in the UK and fully deregulate the banking system. Fraser balked at the idea and told Howard that it wouldn't be in the national interest to leave the banks to their own devices (how prophetic!) and yet it was one of the first things that Hawke did when he got into office.

Letting the banks fully off the leash so they can do whatever they want: By a so-called "Labor" party. Go figure!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Treasurer Frydenburg and Sco Mo announced a massive wage subsidy to keep people's jobs going worth $120,000,000,000. Astonishing - it now brings the total of our Commonwealth government liabilities to something like $750 billion - half our annual GDP. They've spent almost $220 billion just in the last month - mill that one over if you will! We're fast catching up with Japan and the United States with huge debts that can never, ever be repaid.
G'day all,

One thing bothering me, shouldn't the shareholders of all these free market companies supply the needed funds to keep them in business instead of the taxpayer,

If the taxpayer is bailing them out, at the very least, when everything returns to normal the profits from these companies should pay back, at the minimum, the taxpayer bailout amount before shareholders, who have done nothing, receive their dividend.

Otherwise, you have the new capitalist dictum:-
Socialise the cost, privatise the profits.  

Regards,
rxclass
Gets down to is the country better off with or without that company or industry! If the airlines fail, then this will cripple Australian business recovery when the virus is over as well as push 10,000's into unemployment. Remember 1989/90? We tried that experiment in a healthy economy. On the other hand, the loss of the local bakery(s) is hardly going to dampen the economy, despite how nice their cakes are.

In some cases yes I agree the Govt should bail out in return for equity, in others not but there should be some give and take, not a free hand shake. Air NZ post Ansett collapse is case in point. NZ govt later off loaded much of its shares at a profit. Basically privatised the airline twice in two decades.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Oh ohhh.....      https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/04/did-scummo-order-ruby-princess-docking/
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I am sure many of the business hand outs do have repayment terms attached.

The Virgin payment in particular, has repayment terms attached and partial governmental stake in the company taken should such terms not be met.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Oh ohhh.....      https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/04/did-scummo-order-ruby-princess-docking/
wobert
I’ll keep my hawk eyes peeled, for updates.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Oh ohhh.....      https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/04/did-scummo-order-ruby-princess-docking/
I’ll keep my hawk eyes peeled, for updates.
michaelgm
I thought you wanted to move on?

It was quite clear previously the Fed's gave exceptions for 4 ships to enter Australian waters of which Ruby was one due to the number of Australian passengers (2/3) and cruising stop overs where deemed low risk (for Ruby, it was only Jacintiaville). The issue was with the NSW Health Department who have already claimed responsibility for not controlling the movement of these passengers post departure.

"Woosh man's" link is nothing more than a bunch of Twitter Rumors and hearsay, so perhaps again time to move on.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

This toilet-paper thing has gone way too far - this is about the fourth or fifth day I've tried to buy dunny paper and couldn't. It was a terrible coincidence at the Dunstan household that saw us running low on the commodity last weekend just as a friend of mine warned me via email that it was a serious thing and I should buy some before it sells out. And whattya know - the next day as if by magic we couldn't get any! We have plenty of household kitchen towels though so we're possibly going to be down to the nearest biodegradable compatible material in our dwelling. I'm relying on the supply chains to go back to normal before then though.

I blame social media...
Don, kitchen towels, tissues etc do not break down as quickly as conventional toilet paper. You may be inviting plumbing issues.
ONE step ahead of you, Michael. I soaked a piece in water the other day and it falls apart into pulp after a while so its safe for the loo. It's true that some brands won't do that but the ones I've bought do. Facial tissues especially have traces of other fibres to strengthen them so they won't fall apart in the same way, so they're totally unsuitable for flushing.
don_dunstan
Don, caught a snippet on 9 news-ACA, last night. You were right. Care to guess what some peanuts have been flushing? Obviously not one step ahead.
Clearing sewer chokes-a growth industry.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I am sure many of the business hand outs do have repayment terms attached.

The Virgin payment in particular, has repayment terms attached and partial governmental stake in the company taken should such terms not be met.
Aaron
Reassuring that they'll have a stake in a bankrupt airline to show for the tens of millions they threw at it...
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I am sure many of the business hand outs do have repayment terms attached.

The Virgin payment in particular, has repayment terms attached and partial governmental stake in the company taken should such terms not be met.
Reassuring that they'll have a stake in a bankrupt airline to show for the tens of millions they threw at it...
don_dunstan
It's a bit more than tens of millions I think, and Virgin I think will exit the other side of this hardly bankrupt. Presently, they cannot do any of their core business, and yet still have to pay staff, aircraft parking and near all other associated costs without income. Once they can resume passenger transport they'll be okay.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Dutch government has announced that they are withdrawing all the money allocated to fighting climate change and are instead spending it on current and future pandemic prevention. Climate change activists are outraged (of course), but it looks like their own version of Armageddon got out-ranked by the present (much more realistic) Armageddon.
don_dunstan
I suspect anti-global warming funding will very much take a back seat as govt focus on rebuilding their economies, similar happened post GFC when the ETS price tanked.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I am sure many of the business hand outs do have repayment terms attached.

The Virgin payment in particular, has repayment terms attached and partial governmental stake in the company taken should such terms not be met.
Reassuring that they'll have a stake in a bankrupt airline to show for the tens of millions they threw at it...
It's a bit more than tens of millions I think, and Virgin I think will exit the other side of this hardly bankrupt. Presently, they cannot do any of their core business, and yet still have to pay staff, aircraft parking and near all other associated costs without income. Once they can resume passenger transport they'll be okay.
Aaron
Your confidence is high there Aaron.

VA has struggled now for over a decade, probably more. They came in to take on the big boys with the low cost model and through that out the window when they realised full service airlines actually make more money after Ansett failed. But since then both them and most of their parents investor airlines seem to struggle in one way shape or form. Not sure if the poison coming top down or bottom up. Hell they even bought Tiger, just to add another broke airline to the fold.

I know plenty of Aussies who love to bag QF, but QF makes money! But you are probably right as the govt won't want VA to fail, at least not because of this, they will likely survive, but I suspect in a reduced capacity.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The Dutch government has announced that they are withdrawing all the money allocated to fighting climate change and are instead spending it on current and future pandemic prevention. Climate change activists are outraged (of course), but it looks like their own version of Armageddon got out-ranked by the present (much more realistic) Armageddon.
Well If they try to protest In Victoria, they face a $1652 fine for being In a group of more than 2 !
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
As a customer I prefer QFs model with the option of flying Jetstar  witha fairly good pricing structure. That has encouraged to fly with the Qantas group rather than Virgin and Tiger.

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