Murray Basin standardisation

 
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone

It's important to realise that dual guage sleepers would have reduced the speed of trains to 100Km/h or worst case, 80Km/h.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Are you sure?  Dual gauge sleepers on their own (ie without rail) dont have that much impact with the flanges, its when they put the rail in that I thought the problems started?

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  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone
Carnot
Lately ive been a bit dispirited with the future of rail in Victoria.  Things like this do not help.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone

It's important to realise that dual guage sleepers would have reduced the speed of trains to 100Km/h or worst case, 80Km/h.

Mike.
Are you sure?  Dual gauge sleepers on their own (ie without rail) dont have that much impact with the flanges, its when they put the rail in that I thought the problems started?
james.au
I always thought that it was the juxtaposition of the two rails and that it had nothing to do with the sleeper itself.
Was not the BG AN section west of Serviceton laid with dual gauge (dual seat) concrete for years whilst it remained BG in readiness for conversion?
DD707 will be happy with yet another memorial to beloved BG in Victoria.
I sometimes wonder whether the people who decide on such short sighted actions have any vision beyond their next pay packet.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone
Lately ive been a bit dispirited with the future of rail in Victoria.  Things like this do not help.
james.au
Only 'dispirited'?
Are you sure that you are not bordering on becoming a closet optimist?Smile
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Dual gauge sleepers work best with BG or SG track combined with NG track. For example the Perth to Northam line in WA. This is due to the substantially wider spacing: so 3"6" versus 4'8.5" or 5'3". On that line SG versus NG, the Prospector DMU can do 100kph and locomotive hauled trains can do 80kph. Which matches up with what Mike said earlier in this thread.

When you dual gauge SG with BG, the gap is much much narrower and so the speed restrictions come into play.from what I can tell from V Line documents and the Vicsig site, you would be lucky to get 70kph for passenger trains. Let alone 80 - 100 kph.

On that basis I think we can all forget about dual gauge track in Victoria except for some low speed sections in and around around Melbourne as trains transition out of the freight yards and SCS onto either a dedicated BG or SG track.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone

It's important to realise that dual guage sleepers would have reduced the speed of trains to 100Km/h or worst case, 80Km/h.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Why?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Ararat to Ballarat will only ever be single gauge.  There was the suggestion at one point of SG between Ararat to Ballarat (using SG V/locities as a shuttle to Ballarat or to Geelong/Melb via Nth Geelong on converted Ballarat-Geelong line).
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Dual gauge sleepers work best with BG or SG track combined with NG track. For example the Perth to Northam line in WA. This is due to the substantially wider spacing: so 3"6" versus 4'8.5" or 5'3". On that line SG versus NG, the Prospector DMU can do 100kph and locomotive hauled trains can do 80kph. Which matches up with what Mike said earlier in this thread.

When you dual gauge SG with BG, the gap is much much narrower and so the speed restrictions come into play.from what I can tell from V Line documents and the Vicsig site, you would be lucky to get 70kph for passenger trains. Let alone 80 - 100 kph.

On that basis I think we can all forget about dual gauge track in Victoria except for some low speed sections in and around around Melbourne as trains transition out of the freight yards and SCS onto either a dedicated BG or SG track.
Duncs
Nevertheless no BG outside the Metrop should be relaid/resleepered in this day and age which will 'cast it in BG concrete forever'. Ballarat - Ararat is in this category even if the SG rail is not laid for ages. The increased cost of DG concrete sleepers over BG concrete is minuscule in the overall scheme of things.

Invest in the future - do not memorialise past mistakes in concrete.
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone

It's important to realise that dual guage sleepers would have reduced the speed of trains to 100Km/h or worst case, 80Km/h.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Gauge convertible concrete sleepers would not have reduced the train speeds if only the broad gauge rails were installed, the restricted speeds for broad gauge operations only apply if the standard gauge rail is installed for dual gauge operations, if the boffins at VR could show some foresight all sleeper replacements would be gauge convertible sleepers if preparation for the time when conversion to standard gauge is warranted.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone

It's important to realise that dual guage sleepers would have reduced the speed of trains to 100Km/h or worst case, 80Km/h.

Mike.
Gauge convertible concrete sleepers would not have reduced the train speeds if only the broad gauge rails were installed, the restricted speeds for broad gauge operations only apply if the standard gauge rail is installed for dual gauge operations, if the boffins at VR could show some foresight all sleeper replacements would be gauge convertible sleepers if preparation for the time when conversion to standard gauge is warranted.
Mufreight
Dual gauge sleepers and gauge convertible concrete sleepers are two different beasts.

DG sleepers are designed for permanent use on dg track sections which in Victoria currently allow line speed for sg trains, and 80kmh for bg trains, however it is understood VLP has proposed 100kmh on the currently planned dg track section Maryborough - Ballarat for bg trains.

Gauge convertible sleepers have two sets of fittings for affixing the rail on one side. In the Victorian application of bg/sg variation such sleepers should be used for all Victorian tie renewal works on all regional lines as of now. Then when one needs to standardize the line one just moves the rail inwards onto the second set of fixings.

The marginal cost involved in using gauge convertible sleepers now is marginal like a $ 1 or so extra cost per sleeper.
In the case of passenger/freight lines VLP should be using low profile gauge convertible sleepers which are readily available from Austrak (BUT to date V/Line has refused to even trial them), and on freight only lines gauge convertible steel sleepers which VLP also refuses to show any interest in using - albeit they have been hugely successful on NSW regional freight lines, and by ARTC recently between Yarrawonga and Oaklands.

So in the case of Wendouree - Ararat which will be ultimately standardized medium term it has just been sheer shortsightedness coupled with poor VLP attitude to gauge convertible low profile concrete sleepers that only low profile bg concrete have gone in - ultimately all these will have to be pulled out at much greater cost than the incremental extra cost of putting in the gauge convertible variant now, first up.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Dual gauge sleepers work best with BG or SG track combined with NG track. For example the Perth to Northam line in WA. This is due to the substantially wider spacing: so 3"6" versus 4'8.5" or 5'3". On that line SG versus NG, the Prospector DMU can do 100kph and locomotive hauled trains can do 80kph. Which matches up with what Mike said earlier in this thread.

When you dual gauge SG with BG, the gap is much much narrower and so the speed restrictions come into play.from what I can tell from V Line documents and the Vicsig site, you would be lucky to get 70kph for passenger trains. Let alone 80 - 100 kph.

On that basis I think we can all forget about dual gauge track in Victoria except for some low speed sections in and around around Melbourne as trains transition out of the freight yards and SCS onto either a dedicated BG or SG track.
Duncs
Im pretty sure were all in agreement that no dual gauge track should go in but dual gauge sleepers for quicker conversion at a later date, particular with very long lived sleepers such as these ones, should be going in now no?  And just sleepers without rail will have no impact on flange clearances so no impact on speeds?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I don't think it really matter since the poor quality of victrack track means that when the day comes to change to SG the sleepers will most likely need replacing anyway because concrete isn't as long living on below par formation.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Im pretty sure were all in agreement that no dual gauge track should go in but dual gauge sleepers for quicker conversion at a later date, particular with very long lived sleepers such as these ones, should be going in now no?  And just sleepers without track will have no impact on flange clearances so no impact on speeds?
james.au
As mentioned by kuldalai, gauge-convertible, not dual-gauge.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Im pretty sure were all in agreement that no dual gauge track should go in but dual gauge sleepers for quicker conversion at a later date, particular with very long lived sleepers such as these ones, should be going in now no?  And just sleepers without track will have no impact on flange clearances so no impact on speeds?
As mentioned by kuldalai, gauge-convertible, not dual-gauge.
kitchgp
Yes, it's 'either', not 'and'.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

 And just sleepers without track will have no impact on flange clearances so no impact on speeds?
james.au
James,
Please, it's rail, not track.

Track is the whole structure - formation, ballast, sleepers, rails, fastenings.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone
Carnot
I note in this press release it mentions speed restrictions to allow the sleepers to 'bed in'.

Are there are BG Dynamic Stabilisers to address this issue, or is that too high tech?
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone
I note in this press release it mentions speed restrictions to allow the sleepers to 'bed in'.

Are there are BG Dynamic Stabilisers to address this issue, or is that too high tech?
Lockspike
Or what Vline decides irrgeardless of fact.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone
I note in this press release it mentions speed restrictions to allow the sleepers to 'bed in'.

Are there are BG Dynamic Stabilisers to address this issue, or is that too high tech?
Lockspike
If Wikipedia is accurate, BG (5'3")accounts for 0.7% of worldwide rail gauges with Victoria, Ireland and Brazil having less than 10,000 km all told between them. To me, this pretty much ensures that there would be little modern anything BG.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone
I note in this press release it mentions speed restrictions to allow the sleepers to 'bed in'.

Are there are BG Dynamic Stabilisers to address this issue, or is that too high tech?
Lockspike
For years it is common practice when one does a tie renewal cycle where the base is disturbed in replacing sleepers to sections like 10kms at a time at the same time doing a surfacing touch up to restore line and top usually involving a bit more ballast.

One then imposes an 80kmh SR over that section for 2 - 3 weeks to allow things to bed in, before going to full line speed.

Line -  When one looks along the railway into the distance that the railway tracks are straight.
Top - that the railway is flat and level, and not wavy in appearance.

Over time with the passage of trains both line and top deteriorate, to a standard where the maximum speed gives an unsatisfactory ride. A lower speed is then imposed pending a surfacing cycle and if required a tie renewal cycle.

General rule of thumb - it is freight trains that do the damage to the track, but it is passenger trains that require the higher standard of track geometry to be maintained. So passenger only lines like Ararat lower cost maintenance light DMU axle loads, low maintenance cost with concrete sleepers.  Freight only lines track geometry standards do not have to be so high for lower 50, 65 & 80 kmh operations.

For freight only lines NSW has adopted a low maintenance cost model where freight only lines are progressively being converted to steel sleepers with clean tightly packed ballast under the steel sleepers. This model is already proving to be a lower cost maintenance model on a longer term on going basis. Meanwhile Victoria perpetuates a high maintenance cost freight line model in continuing with wooden sleepers.
  Z VAN Junior Train Controller

I like everyone wonder why gauge convertible sleepers are not laid on every renewal except Suburban lines when ever maintenance is done.
Since Australian National in the early 1990's showed how it could be done if you plan ahead.
The answer to me has been provided by the testimony given by the People giving evidence to the Hotel Quarantine Inquiry.
NO ONE seemed to be in control and everything just evolved.
How do we expect the Railways to be run any differently? They have the same Masters.
I think I fit the definition of Madness. I keep expecting a different outcome with the same people making the same inputs.
PTE.
  Otter_H Locomotive Fireman

Not sure if this has been asked before, but if the line to Mildura had been upgraded to 100km/h standard would any operator have utilised this speed for their operations?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone

It's important to realise that dual guage sleepers would have reduced the speed of trains to 100Km/h or worst case, 80Km/h.

Mike.
Gauge convertible concrete sleepers would not have reduced the train speeds if only the broad gauge rails were installed, the restricted speeds for broad gauge operations only apply if the standard gauge rail is installed for dual gauge operations, if the boffins at VR could show some foresight all sleeper replacements would be gauge convertible sleepers if preparation for the time when conversion to standard gauge is warranted.
Mufreight

Agreed....my bad. Smile

I meant to say, if laid with rails on both gauges, the speed limit has to be reduced.

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Meanwhile, Ballarat to Ararat won't be going SG anytime soon with 10000s of sleepers now of the BG concrete variety.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/ararat-sleeper-replacement-marks-major-milestone
Lately ive been a bit dispirited with the future of rail in Victoria.  Things like this do not help.
Only 'dispirited'?
Are you sure that you are not bordering on becoming a closet optimist?Smile
YM-Mundrabilla

I'm only dispirited at the upcoming 'train wreck' of the grain season that cannot be accommodated by the rail network due to underinvestment.

Mike.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
 And just sleepers without track will have no impact on flange clearances so no impact on speeds?
James,
Please, it's rail, not track.

Track is the whole structure - formation, ballast, sleepers, rails, fastenings.
Lockspike
Sorry yes of course, I know this well.  Fast typing in a busy afternoon, sorry!
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Not sure if this has been asked before, but if the line to Mildura had been upgraded to 100km/h standard would any operator have utilised this speed for their operations?
Otter_H
Speed, but at what axleload?
Are we not still battling in Victoria to get 80 tonne at 80 km/h universally?
10 x T class flat out hauling a hat full of part loaded VHGYs at 100 km/h perhaps?
We simply have not got the infrastructure, the will, the investment or the interest in really efficient freight rail. There will always be a Nanny somewhere in the bureaucracy to impose a darg, restriction or some other impediment unknown to road transport.

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