The Aussie politics thread -

 
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Well, off you go, Don. Nip over and sweet talk them - do a bit of Neville Chamberlain diplomacy.
Valvegear
How exactly are we going to 'sweet talk' a communist dictatorship that's demanding we give them special treatment, Valvegear? Stop talking about COVID's origins? Don't ask about the gulags?

Sell-out.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Chinese Communist Party hates us so much that they're buying coal from the United States (yes, the ultimate enemy - although perhaps not so much now that Mister Magoo is in charge) for a very expensive US$165 rather than buy it from us @ US$104 per ton. From the Financial Review:

China is paying through the nose for coal from North America while it rejects or defers shipments from Australia.

The high-priced coal buying was revealed in an update from Toronto Stock Exchange-listed Teck Resources, which said it had boosted sales into China and achieved a huge premium on Australian product.

Teck said it had seen increased demand and sales into China since the start of October, around the same time political tension between Canberra and Beijing were linked to Australian shipments being spurned or delayed.

…“Our contract sales to Chinese customers are also priced on the basis of CFR China price assessments. The most recent three cargoes were sold at prices between $US160 a tonne and $US165 a tonne CFR China.

They've also held up existing shipments in China on the basis of "failed environmental standards".
"don_dunstan"


I believe we discussed this before and this was a indicated potential outcome. ie the coal China will need to source will come at a premium.

US coal  production was in steep decline during Trump's 4 year term. Biden doesn't have to do much to slow it down. Coal fired enerrgy generation is declining by 2%pa and export tonnes is hardly a growth business.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Well, off you go, Don. Nip over and sweet talk them - do a bit of Neville Chamberlain diplomacy.
Valvegear
what, there will be coal in our time????
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Now the Commies in China have slapped a massive tariff on Aussie wine.  It is hypocritical of all the KRudd's and Jane Caro's of this country to demand we cave in to the CCP bullies and human-rights abusers so we can sell our stuff there.

Do they have shares in wine companies and vineyards?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Now the Commies in China have slapped a massive tariff on Aussie wine.  It is hypocritical of all the KRudd's and Jane Caro's of this country to demand we cave in to the CCP bullies and human-rights abusers so we can sell our stuff there.

Do they have shares in wine companies and vineyards?
"Carnot"


Nope, take the short term pain and tell China, no worries we will go elsewhere.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Interesting article in the Australian this weekend from News Limited editor David Penberthy about his interactions with Kevin Rudd over the years - there's a paywall but here's some of the interesting tid-bits here:

I said that Rudd sought me out as editor. That is an understatement. Rudd was incessant in his desire to engage with and use the media to realise his desire for power. He was particularly desperate to win favour with The Daily Telegraph as the paper that had both coined the term and represented the Howard battlers, the vast swath of aspirational voters in suburban marginal seats across Sydney who make and break governments.

Mr Rudd’s media strategy ­occurred over three phases: his calculated white-anting of his predecessor as Labor leader, Kim Beazley; his seeing off of Howard; and his protracted campaign of vengeance against Julia Gillard as payback for the 2010 coup, when he would habitually refer to Australia’s first female prime minister as “that f..king smeg” in obscenity-filled backgrounding calls to ­journalists and editors tearing her down...

...I saw Howard not long before the 2007 election at a rugby league function and we sat on the same table. I had got to know him well as The Advertiser’s Canberra correspondent between 1996 and 1999 when he was always generous with his time.

I had dined with him often at (more civilised) functions at Kirribilli House and The Lodge as a journalist and editor. Howard ­approached me that night after the meal and said quietly: “Now Mr Penberthy, am I right in ­detecting a certain editorial shift?”

I said he was. I said we weren’t trying to dance on his ­political grave, but that our reading of the mood was that things were shifting. He smiled and said: “Well, I hope you note that you haven’t been getting any ­profanity-laden phone calls from me.”

Howard was referring to the fact (well known by then) that Rudd had a habit of calling up News Limited editors and journalists and swearing at them if he didn't get favorable coverage in the lead up to the 2007 election.

And now he has the temerity to say that Murdoch has too much power? Please - he was more than happy to use Murdoch when it suited his agenda. What a hypocrite.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
I as a fellow card carrier have noticed that heaps of new labor party members are left wing soy chai lattee sipping inner city woke uni students, some of whom have never done a day of physical work in their lives, all from middle to upper middle class families.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I as a fellow card carrier have noticed that heaps of new labor party members are left wing soy chai lattee sipping inner city woke uni students, some of whom have never done a day of physical work in their lives, all from middle to upper middle class families.
"Gasyspie"
So what? And why do people like you use "latte sipping" as a term of scorn? I guess you prefer Nescafe; real workin' man's stuff!
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
left wing soy chai lattee sipping inner city woke uni students
Gayspie
You say that like it's a bad thing.

Perhaps you'd like to go back to the 1950's when men did the work and a woman's job was to stay at home?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
I as a fellow card carrier have noticed that heaps of new labor party members are left wing soy chai lattee sipping inner city woke uni students, some of whom have never done a day of physical work in their lives, all from middle to upper middle class families.
Gayspie

Thank you Pol Pot - you and your kind are most dangerous in the extreme.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
left wing soy chai lattee sipping inner city woke uni students
You say that like it's a bad thing.

Perhaps you'd like to go back to the 1950's when men did the work and a woman's job was to stay at home?
Greensleeves
At least China would be in its place and nobody would care about the Carbon Fairy!!!


(Impersonating a prolific poster here)
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Now the Commies in China have slapped a massive tariff on Aussie wine.  It is hypocritical of all the KRudd's and Jane Caro's of this country to demand we cave in to the CCP bullies and human-rights abusers so we can sell our stuff there.

Do they have shares in wine companies and vineyards?
Carnot
Wine is just the latest commodity and people here will lose jobs and growth.  China is reality and short of invading the country with our big friends we aren't going to change anything.

The question here is why we are the ones leading the charge ??? Sure it plays well to the local reactionary wrought but what's the end game here. Is anyone lining up with us, taking reciprocating action against China. No, on the contrary they're jumping in to pick up the trade we're throwing away.

Now that we're finding our moral compass, China will watch how we deal with the alleged atrocities committed in Afghanistan. God it's hard to be humble...
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Now the Commies in China have slapped a massive tariff on Aussie wine.  It is hypocritical of all the KRudd's and Jane Caro's of this country to demand we cave in to the CCP bullies and human-rights abusers so we can sell our stuff there.

Do they have shares in wine companies and vineyards?

No, on the contrary they're jumping in to pick up the trade we're throwing away.

Groundrelay

And it will be the Yanks leading the charge......
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
left wing soy chai lattee sipping inner city woke uni students
You say that like it's a bad thing.

Perhaps you'd like to go back to the 1950's when men did the work and a woman's job was to stay at home?
At least China would be in its place and nobody would care about the Carbon Fairy!!!


(Impersonating a prolific poster here)
Dangersdan707
They've got no intention whatsoever of paying homage to the Carbon Fairy (blessed be her name). They don't have to start abiding by Paris until 2050 and even then they're telling lies as I speak, building more coal fired plants across the nation.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Now the Commies in China have slapped a massive tariff on Aussie wine.  It is hypocritical of all the KRudd's and Jane Caro's of this country to demand we cave in to the CCP bullies and human-rights abusers so we can sell our stuff there.

Do they have shares in wine companies and vineyards?
Wine is just the latest commodity and people here will lose jobs and growth.  China is reality and short of invading the country with our big friends we aren't going to change anything.

The question here is why we are the ones leading the charge ??? Sure it plays well to the local reactionary wrought but what's the end game here. Is anyone lining up with us, taking reciprocating action against China. No, on the contrary they're jumping in to pick up the trade we're throwing away.

Now that we're finding our moral compass, China will watch how we deal with the alleged atrocities committed in Afghanistan. God it's hard to be humble...
Groundrelay
A rampant special operations group killing a few dozen civilians is nothing in comparison to the historical and present-day crimes of the Communist Party of China. If it was the Chinese committing those atrocities in Afghanistan it would have been permanently buried - they would have shot all the family members and witnesses just to make sure no bad news got out.

As a nation we uncover that bad behavior and investigate it making it public - that simply doesn't happen in China.

Anyway I find myself in agreement with you that we can't change the outcome anyway - but not that we're 'leading the charge' - far from it, we're just being picked on entirely due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The reality is that the Chinese are singling us out because:
  • We're much more vulnerable than any other western liberal democracy with 40% of our exports headed for China;
  • A member of the 'five eyes' Anglosphere intelligence group;
  • A close ally of the USA with the ANZUS treaty having been in place for almost eighty years;
  • We also have American military installations on our territory.
All these things make us a likely target for their experimental treatment - they're doing stuff to us that they lack the courage to do to the United States because the USA will follow through with Trump's threat to set up an entirely separate trade bloc, although with Mister Magoo coming into office its likely that they'll get a softer reception to their aggression (not sure at this point, we'll have to see).

Referring their unfair barley and wine tariffs to the WTO as I noticed Simon Birmingham is doing on the news is going to be completely futile - what action will the WTO take against the behemoth that is China? Slap them with a wet lettuce leaf?

The Chinese have been getting extremely wealthy thanks to the largess of the west allowing them into the WTO without forcing them to follow the rules - they're not prepared to try out their new-found punishments on the rest of the liberal democratic world (not yet anyway). We're a test case to see how the west will react... probably just with mealy-mouthed platitudes like the Labor Party have been doing.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Now that we're finding our moral compass, China will watch how we deal with the alleged atrocities committed in Afghanistan. God it's hard to be humble...
Groundrelay
Extradition.

Nothing less.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Referring their unfair barley and wine tariffs to the WTO as I noticed Simon Birmingham is doing on the news is going to be completely futile - what action will the WTO take against the behemoth that is China? Slap them with a wet lettuce leaf?

The Chinese have been getting extremely wealthy thanks to the largess of the west allowing them into the WTO without forcing them to follow the rules - they're not prepared to try out their new-found punishments on the rest of the liberal democratic world (not yet anyway). We're a test case to see how the west will react... probably just with mealy-mouthed platitudes like the Labor Party have been doing.
don_dunstan
Labor isn't playing to wrought wing media and their audience. The LNP on the other hand is two faced. Some out there talking tough on China whilst portfolio ministers like Birmingham don't.

How the hell are we a test case. The LNP and their mouth pieces only play the China card because there are votes in it, as if Australia actually matters. The bluster up to now has been cheap. If they did something ballsy like cut our iron ore exports 10% or direct retailers to reduce their China purchases by 10% that would be test case. Never going to happen because big money always trumps that side's morals.

P.S. The human rights situation is to be condemned but what was the situation that lead to the communist revolution. Who are the presumptuous 'right' to lecture given its history of opposition to socio-economic change. If you expect China to become a liberal democracy, do you mean just like Russia.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Referring their unfair barley and wine tariffs to the WTO as I noticed Simon Birmingham is doing on the news is going to be completely futile - what action will the WTO take against the behemoth that is China? Slap them with a wet lettuce leaf?

The Chinese have been getting extremely wealthy thanks to the largess of the west allowing them into the WTO without forcing them to follow the rules - they're not prepared to try out their new-found punishments on the rest of the liberal democratic world (not yet anyway). We're a test case to see how the west will react... probably just with mealy-mouthed platitudes like the Labor Party have been doing.
Labor isn't playing to wrought wing media and their audience. The LNP on the other hand is two faced. Some out there talking tough on China whilst portfolio ministers like Birmingham don't.

How the hell are we a test case. The LNP and their mouth pieces only play the China card because there are votes in it, as if Australia actually matters. The bluster up to now has been cheap. If they did something ballsy like cut our iron ore exports 10% or direct retailers to reduce their China purchases by 10% that would be test case. Never going to happen because big money always trumps that side's morals.

P.S. The human rights situation is to be condemned but what was the situation that lead to the communist revolution. Who are the presumptuous 'right' to lecture given its history of opposition to socio-economic change. If you expect China to become a liberal democracy, do you mean just like Russia.
Groundrelay
I presume you mean 'right wing audience'. The Labor Party does indeed play both sides a bit, Penny Wong was going all China "hawk" a while back when she said that we should be protecting our sovereignty better but on the whole its the Labor Party that has been the target of Chinese Communist Party hacking activities including Sam Dastyari and Earnest Wong so in general they've been quite "dovish" towards the CCP. And people on the Labor side like Joel Fitzgibbon have been nauseatingly so pro-China that its impossible to imagine that they haven't also been told to tow the line on the CCP by Albanese or else.

I really don't agree with you about the votes being in bashing China, this issue has transcended politics in Australia and it has the potential to be an existential threat for our nation. The CCP have committed some pretty horrendous acts of espionage and industrial spying against Australia and our private companies both here and abroad - they've hacked government agencies multiple times, they've even tried to hobble the I.T. systems of private companies involved in defense logistics like Toll. These things in themselves are really terrible acts of aggression and yet the LNP has barely breathed a word of them for fear of upsetting the sensitive flower that is the CCP.

Now we're told by the CCP that we have to drop any calls for an independent investigation into the sources of COVID, drop all our objections to the Chinese takeover of Hong Kong and Taiwan, allow Chinese companies unfettered access to buy whatever they want in Australia (even though no Australian company can own more than 49% of any Chinese company, nor can we buy land or houses there). We also have to shut up about "belt and road" and allow the Victorian government to keep borrowing from the Chinese Communist Party, withdraw from any bilateral naval exercises in the South China Sea... the list goes on.

The bottom line is that we either have to completely surrender our rule of law and ignore what it is that the CCP does in our nation OR we don't give them any special treatment (as the LNP is presently doing) and suffer the consequences. I'm all for the latter - obviously. We shouldn't be giving any nation any special treatment - especially one that's simultaneously threatening us.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
As if to prove my theory that Penny Wong is the designated Labor Party "sino-skeptic" she hit out today at Chinese Communist Party's portrayal of Australian troops in Afghanistan as murderers of children - ABC;

Shadow Foreign Minister Penny Wong also deplored the tweet, describing it as as "gratuitous" and "inflammatory".

"This is not the behaviour of a responsible, mature international power," she said.

"These tactics will be met with unified condemnation in the Australian community and they will be judged harshly by the international community.

"The allegations in the Brereton report have horrified Australia.

"What sets us apart is the dignified, transparent and accountable manner of our response."

No, Penny - what sets the Labor Party apart is that you're the only one there prepared to condemn the CCP. She's pretty much the only one in the Labor Party whose job it seems to be to say bad things about China - the rest of them couldn't possibly crawl up the CCP's sphincter any further.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

More and more China is looking like Japan in the 1930s.  They've given up on soft diplomacy and are taking the hard-line.

https://medium.com/@michaelbird18/dont-be-fooled-china-in-the-2020s-is-japan-in-the-1930s-7b0e45654f8f

What will Australia do?  Especially if Biden lets China take over Taiwan?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
More and more China is looking like Japan in the 1930s.  They've given up on soft diplomacy and are taking the hard-line.

https://medium.com/@michaelbird18/dont-be-fooled-china-in-the-2020s-is-japan-in-the-1930s-7b0e45654f8f

What will Australia do?  Especially if Biden lets China take over Taiwan?
Carnot
That's my fear too, Biden was part of an administration that was really quite weak on China. Companies like Dow, Intel and Monsanto were screaming out at the Obama government to do something about continued intellectual property theft but Obama did nothing. Not sure if this was because they were frightened of starting a trade war with China or simply too lazy and preoccupied with domestic issues.

With Biden seemingly continuing the 'do nothing' policy you'd have to wonder if Xi will take his cue sometime during his Presidency to invade Taiwan which is something they've been itching to do for more than 70 years in order to bolster public opinion of the CCP at home. I'd imagine that Biden will probably give them a wink if China tells them it's just about 'reunification' and that its none of their business - but we'll see if and when that actually happens.

We're dealing with an increasingly expansionist and aggressive China - that was always going to happen in my opinion. The comparison with Tojo's Japan is seemingly quite valid.
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
We trade more with India, and initially subsidise exporters away from China to establish in other markets so we diversify away from all the eggs in the one large basket.

Maybe we look at what’s imported from China and have a word to the greedy locals partaking in the cheap labour there as being part of the problem. Find another country with similar circumstances. We don’t overtly advocate this, we say people are exploring business opportunities with many options.

Besides, we aren’t buying our stuff from people other than China for higher prices out of spite are we??


Regards

ps. And let’s advocate for the Japanese Self Defence Force to drop the “Self Defence” bit.  Let’s roll that ball down the alley and see what happens with China:shock:
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
More and more China is looking like Japan in the 1930s.  They've given up on soft diplomacy and are taking the hard-line.

https://medium.com/@michaelbird18/dont-be-fooled-china-in-the-2020s-is-japan-in-the-1930s-7b0e45654f8f

What will Australia do?  Especially if Biden lets China take over Taiwan?
Carnot
That's my fear too, Biden was part of an administration that was really quite weak on China. Companies like Dow, Intel and Monsanto were screaming out at the Obama government to do something about continued intellectual property theft but Obama did nothing. Not sure if this was because they were frightened of starting a trade war with China or simply too lazy and preoccupied with domestic issues.

With Biden seemingly continuing the 'do nothing' policy you'd have to wonder if Xi will take his cue sometime during his Presidency to invade Taiwan which is something they've been itching to do for more than 70 years in order to bolster public opinion of the CCP at home. I'd imagine that Biden will probably give them a wink if China tells them it's just about 'reunification' and that its none of their business - but we'll see if and when that actually happens.

We're dealing with an increasingly expansionist and aggressive China - that was always going to happen in my opinion. The comparison with Tojo's Japan is seemingly quite valid.
"don_dunstan"


No, I don't see a forceful take over of Taiwan. 24m people on a island twice the size of Tasmania. There 4m active military members, a few million more with military training all with real combat peace keeping experience. $13Bpa budget, some of best hardware you can buy.

While a shadow of the PRC in size, the PRC is the one that needs to be mobile. Its impossible to be a surprise aerial wise and even a flotilla will still take 6-8h to get there.  

A forceful attack on Taiwan will bring the wrath of the developed world against China economically if not military. US will find it difficult not to support Taiwan.

Other issue for China should it attack  Taiwan, then it exposes itself on how good its military training and hardware is compared to the US training and equipment.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
We trade more with India, and initially subsidise exporters away from China to establish in other markets so we diversify away from all the eggs in the one large basket.

Maybe we look at what’s imported from China and have a word to the greedy locals partaking in the cheap labour there as being part of the problem. Find another country with similar circumstances. We don’t overtly advocate this, we say people are exploring business opportunities with many options.

Besides, we aren’t buying our stuff from people other than China for higher prices out of spite are we??


Regards

ps. And let’s advocate for the Japanese Self Defence Force to drop the “Self Defence” bit.  Let’s roll that ball down the alley and see what happens with China:shock:
"davesvline"


Agree on Japan JSDF

Yes, trade with China simple. All govt's and govt contracts in Australia are not allowed to source materials directly from China.

Exporters not allowed to renew contracts with China.

We don't need a pi$$ing context like Trump. Just one thing at a time, we are not interested in doing business with you. Simple. No tariff's, no impacts on existing contracts, no Tweet's, no my rocket is bigger than yours, just stop doing business with them. Science for the benefit of humanity and similar are not affected.

There will be some short term pain, but this will open up trade with other markets as well as some on-shoring.

Remember most of what we sell China is dug up with a loader, screened and put on a train. Not exactly high employment generating type stuff and where they can they are coping to make the same themselves.

Most of what they sell us is manufacturing employment generating stuff.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
More and more China is looking like Japan in the 1930s.  They've given up on soft diplomacy and are taking the hard-line.

https://medium.com/@michaelbird18/dont-be-fooled-china-in-the-2020s-is-japan-in-the-1930s-7b0e45654f8f

What will Australia do?  Especially if Biden lets China take over Taiwan?
That's my fear too, Biden was part of an administration that was really quite weak on China. Companies like Dow, Intel and Monsanto were screaming out at the Obama government to do something about continued intellectual property theft but Obama did nothing. Not sure if this was because they were frightened of starting a trade war with China or simply too lazy and preoccupied with domestic issues.

With Biden seemingly continuing the 'do nothing' policy you'd have to wonder if Xi will take his cue sometime during his Presidency to invade Taiwan which is something they've been itching to do for more than 70 years in order to bolster public opinion of the CCP at home. I'd imagine that Biden will probably give them a wink if China tells them it's just about 'reunification' and that its none of their business - but we'll see if and when that actually happens.

We're dealing with an increasingly expansionist and aggressive China - that was always going to happen in my opinion. The comparison with Tojo's Japan is seemingly quite valid.


No, I don't see a forceful take over of Taiwan. 24m people on a island twice the size of Tasmania. There 4m active military members, a few million more with military training all with real combat peace keeping experience. $13Bpa budget, some of best hardware you can buy.

While a shadow of the PRC in size, the PRC is the one that needs to be mobile. Its impossible to be a surprise aerial wise and even a flotilla will still take 6-8h to get there.  

A forceful attack on Taiwan will bring the wrath of the developed world against China economically if not military. US will find it difficult not to support Taiwan.

Other issue for China should it attack  Taiwan, then it exposes itself on how good its military training and hardware is compared to the US training and equipment.
RTT_Rules
It doesn't mean that the Chinese won't still do it. Putin took over the Crimean peninsula with no retaliation from the West - China is probably calculating the reaction from the West verses the value of taking over Taiwan at home - finally reunifying the country in their opinion.

You might be interested in an exploration of the issues more fully - Foreign Policy. Taiwan has a historically ethnic connection to China but not much else. The KMT fled there in 1948 - that's what's motivating Xi to 'reunify' the two nations.

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