XPT replacement thread 2019

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Unless covid disappears anytime soon, it will be a stretch to expect that the trains will be delivered by the next election cycle.

If the wheels fall off the XPT by then, there is always the option of hook and pull.

That isn't an option. Hook and pull is never returning to NSW passenger services again outside of heritage and the IP.
simstrain
ANR has been struggling to come to terms with the fact the XPT fleet will actually be replaced with trains since the NSW LNP govt announced the XPT replacement wasn't a bus.

Most of the world's industry has long since gotten over the CV issues and apart from some exemptions generally there are few issues. (One exemption is getting Ford Ranger accessories in Dubai due to the Vic lockdown.)  So while a delay is entirely possible the delay will not be significant and worst case the state would just resort busitution on 1 or 2 routes or truncation with bus to terminus to accelerate XPT return to Sydney although I personally doubt it. Ironically the CV has potentially help extend the XPT life as services were truncated by state border closures and thus providing more time for servicing and/or reducing wear and tear.

Agree, hook and pull NSW govt pax services are dead.

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  ANR Chief Commissioner

RTT, if I am struggling with anything, it is to believe a politician.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Unless covid disappears anytime soon, it will be a stretch to expect that the trains will be delivered by the next election cycle.

If the wheels fall off the XPT by then, there is always the option of hook and pull.

That isn't an option. Hook and pull is never returning to NSW passenger services again outside of heritage and the IP.
ANR has been struggling to come to terms with the fact the XPT fleet will actually be replaced with trains since the NSW LNP govt announced the XPT replacement wasn't a bus.

Most of the world's industry has long since gotten over the CV issues and apart from some exemptions generally there are few issues. (One exemption is getting Ford Ranger accessories in Dubai due to the Vic lockdown.)  So while a delay is entirely possible the delay will not be significant and worst case the state would just resort busitution on 1 or 2 routes or truncation with bus to terminus to accelerate XPT return to Sydney although I personally doubt it. Ironically the CV has potentially help extend the XPT life as services were truncated by state border closures and thus providing more time for servicing and/or reducing wear and tear.

Agree, hook and pull NSW govt pax services are dead.
RTT_Rules
Dead, buried and cremated.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
RTT, if I am struggling with anything, it is to believe a politician.
ANR
Hi ANR,
Believing a politician bit I get, but you must admit on this particular topic it was abit more than that.

If memory serves me well, even before the start of the XPT replacement project was announced you were predicting bustituation, almost a fair call as others shared the same view although no NSW govt would have the balls to fully withdrawal all regional services. However even after the govt announced what would happen and signed a contract you were posting that the project was unlikely to proceed and made numerous comments since along the same lines.

On the side, over the last 10 years or so there have been numerous posters (not saying you as I don't remember) who simply couldn't come to terms with the fact a LNP govt would actually fund new trains to replace the XPT, despite the fact that the "N" in LNP stands for National, the key voters of regional NSW and that the ALP govt is the one with the history of cutting regional services in more recent times ie the Murwullibah line and XPT, came very close to axing the Armidale XPL if not for the local Mayor and wanted to cut back the Brisbane XPT to 4 days per week if not for the support of the Qld Premier at the time who partly funds the Brisbane XPT.

Anyway, the new trains are coming, the real question is more how will the new timetables look and what role will the XPL's play in supporting both the interurban and regional services.
  Campaspe 2 Junior Train Controller

Hello,

I understand that a full size mock-up of the new CAF train is currently located somewhere in Bathurst and is being used to obtain staff and customer group feedback on the proposed interior fit-out. I believe it has been in Bathurst since the beginning of December 2020.

Does anyone know where in Bathurst the mock-up is located and if it will be moved around the State to be shown to a range of user groups?

Also, who manufactured the mock-up?

Kind Regards

Campapse
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
I'm sorry if this has been asked before but will the new trains have a tilting mechanism like the X2000?
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
I'm sorry if this has been asked before but will the new trains have a tilting mechanism like the X200
GeoffreyHansen
I doubt it
  route14 Chief Commissioner

In fact, the QR's tilt trains have had their tilt function disabled for safety concerns.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I'm sorry if this has been asked before but will the new trains have a tilting mechanism like the X2000?
GeoffreyHansen
No!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
But for so many reasons they should have but we are talking a conservative government here.

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

But for so many reasons they should have but we are talking a conservative government here.

Mike.
The Vinelander
We went down that route and found it wasn't worth it. The new trains will be much quicker then the XPT in the tight bits anyway.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
But for so many reasons they should have but we are talking a conservative government here.

Mike.
We went down that route and found it wasn't worth it. The new trains will be much quicker then the XPT in the tight bits anyway.
simstrain

So we'll have aged pensioners flung around the cars, as I have seen previously on the main South as they try and access the buffet for their morning cuppa.

It's not a pretty picture to see an aged person land on a folded table and see it smashed all due to the G forces on some of those sharp curves taken at speed.

Mike.
  tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

In fact, the QR's tilt trains have had their tilt function disabled for safety concerns.
route14
Have any source for that.  Having the tilt mechanism disabled means the diesel tilts they simply cannot keep the timetable while south of mackay and for the electrics wouldn't be able to keep the timetable at all.  Means the jounry for the rocky tilt train is about 1 hour longer.
  tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

But for so many reasons they should have but we are talking a conservative government here.

Mike.
We went down that route and found it wasn't worth it. The new trains will be much quicker then the XPT in the tight bits anyway.

So we'll have aged pensioners flung around the cars, as I have seen previously on the main South as they try and access the buffet for their morning cuppa.

It's not a pretty picture to see an aged person land on a folded table and see it smashed all due to the G forces on some of those sharp curves taken at speed.

Mike.
The Vinelander
All he means is shorter trains combined with a higher power/weight ratio along with slightly better braking means that they can up to speed vfaster and then drop it back down.  Over 900km the seconds saved around each speed change add up.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

But for so many reasons they should have but we are talking a conservative government here.

Mike.
We went down that route and found it wasn't worth it. The new trains will be much quicker then the XPT in the tight bits anyway.
simstrain
The X2000 trials confirmed that the sharp curves that abound in NSW do not allow a tilt train to gain a worthwhile amount of time over a regular train.

The Main South has many 400m radius curves between Picton and Bethungra. An XPT/Explorer is limited to around 80km/h on such curves, and need around 2000m curve at 160km/h. A tilt train shines when typical minimum radius curve is, say 800m.

Note: Tilt trains do not 'tilt' (not talking about track superelevation, which is a whole different topic), only the body of the train tilts. If the tilt mechanism fails the train is still able to negotiate the curves at it's normal speed, but it will make the passengers (sea) sick. The whole concept of tilting body trains is only for passenger comfort at the higher speeds, and the amount of tilt and the speed of the tilting motion, is absolutely critical.
  ANR Chief Commissioner

Should have stuck with a new build of XPLs which have proven their ability to run on a crappy track in far flung reaches. It has great utility. A train that looks more like a bendy bus but has no rubber wheels.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
But for so many reasons they should have but we are talking a conservative government here.

Mike.
We went down that route and found it wasn't worth it. The new trains will be much quicker then the XPT in the tight bits anyway.

So we'll have aged pensioners flung around the cars, as I have seen previously on the main South as they try and access the buffet for their morning cuppa.

It's not a pretty picture to see an aged person land on a folded table and see it smashed all due to the G forces on some of those sharp curves taken at speed.

Mike.
All he means is shorter trains combined with a higher power/weight ratio along with slightly better braking means that they can up to speed faster and then drop it back down.  Over 900km the seconds saved around each speed change add up.
tazzer96

My comments stand...and it's hardly 900 Km when the line is almost straight as a die from Wagga to Melbourne.

M.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


So we'll have aged pensioners flung around the cars, as I have seen previously on the main South as they try and access the buffet for their morning cuppa.

It's not a pretty picture to see an aged person land on a folded table and see it smashed all due to the G forces on some of those sharp curves taken at speed.

Mike.
The Vinelander

So making it a tilt train and going a little bit faster is going to make this go away? Modern suspension systems can solve this issue without needing to put a complicated tilt mechanism in. Some realignment would be welcome for sure.
  a6et Minister for Railways


So we'll have aged pensioners flung around the cars, as I have seen previously on the main South as they try and access the buffet for their morning cuppa.

It's not a pretty picture to see an aged person land on a folded table and see it smashed all due to the G forces on some of those sharp curves taken at speed.

Mike.
So making it a tilt train and going a little bit faster is going to make this go away? Modern suspension systems can solve this issue without needing to put a complicated tilt mechanism in. Some realignment would be welcome for sure.
simstrain
sims, what Vinelander says shows the big problem that older and not so old passengers who would not have been pensioners as such have with walking through the the XPT carriages either to the toilets or buffet.  When in their seats the carriages generally are fine and have no real hint of problems regarding the ride they are experiencing.

Walking through them is another matter though, few passengers no matter their age can walk through without balance problems and having to grab the seats to steady themselves, and its not a matter of high speed either, nor really the track itself. Problem also is the simple aspect there is no hand rail sections on the backrests to help the passengers in their walking through the carriages, the other aspect is most people are simply not capable of adjusting their walk to compensate themselves with the ride in the carriages.

My first trip in an XPT and walking through the carriages I found the ride terrible, thing was that I was able to adjust my walking style in order to get through without problems.  The reason was that the type of swaying and movement was very much like working as a fireman on steam loco's, especially when firing them, the 36cl in particular was rough riding at speed, ok sitting down but when firing one was balanced with one leg/foot on the tender/fall plate and the other on the main cab floor which had the body going in different angles, the only real aspect to counter the problem was walk/work with bent knees and body very much in a flexible like state.  Being used to that type of motion I was able to walk through an XPT without problems, however I also saved a few passengers not as old as I was from falling over, note the movement was very heavily sideways accentuated, and constant.

Up front in the driving cab it was worse as again the bogies were sprung very softly and hitting a hole in the road one could be bounced up and down badly.

Despite all the track upgrades since their introduction, the passenger ride comforts have gone nowhere, except perhaps downwards.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Thanks for supportive the comment a6et.

I have developed a 'gait' over many years of train travel to enable me to walk through swaying cars, like the XPT on the main South and though it's not a normal walk, the gait enables one to maintain balance in most swaying cars and on curves etc.

The most obvious example of train staff developing their own gait was on the old Ghan when those cars used to sway like mad, even at around 30Km/h and those connies had the their gait down pat.

But it's almost impossible to instruct older people who only use high speed trains very occasionally to alter the way they walk to ensure their balance.

Mike.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I know what it is like because I have been thrown around on an XPT as well and that was in a straight line heading north on the vic north east. My point was how does that relate to tilt trains and why would a tilt train be less prone to doing this on the straighter pieces of track south of the border where this happens mostly? I have never experienced this issue anywhere other then on the vic ne and the main south between albury and junee. I have never really had this issue on the Xplorer which does have more modern suspension then the XPT.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I know what it is like because I have been thrown around on an XPT as well and that was in a straight line heading north on the vic north east. My point was how does that relate to tilt trains and why would a tilt train be less prone to doing this on the straighter pieces of track south of the border where this happens mostly? I have never experienced this issue anywhere other then on the vic ne and the main south between albury and junee. I have never really had this issue on the Xplorer which does have more modern suspension then the XPT.
simstrain
Certainly the XPL rides better but gee they are noisy, even in 1stclass.

I for one have no idea about the tilt train, except it was deemed a failure when brought here and used on the Canberra Run.

The XPT is a problem with every line, and I would not like to say which one is worst, I travel more on the NCL services and its rough no matter where you are on that line, the Short North Section is fair at best but mostly passengers are seated at that time on the down, but busier on the up as last calls for the buffet go out.

I tend to believe that if the replacement trains are better in the ride, and comfort area more people may use them.
  ANR Chief Commissioner

How is the CAF going to provide extra comfort on the same tracks?

The bathurst mock up looks like crap. Yuk! Are they going to be the final colours? Why not make the train feel like a lounge as SJ does on its long distance pax rail in Sweden?

I have always hated the XPT/XPL seat colours and cabin. Am I the only one who thinks the interior looks like a mobile hospital emergency room?

This is what I will miss about the v sets. Wall to wall carpet and the right colour. I even liked the wood laminate panels that they had at one point.
  Big J Deputy Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
In fact, the QR's tilt trains have had their tilt function disabled for safety concerns.
route14
When?

What is your source?

Thanks
Big J
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

How is the CAF going to provide extra comfort on the same tracks?

The bathurst mock up looks like crap. Yuk! Are they going to be the final colours? Why not make the train feel like a lounge as SJ does on its long distance pax rail in Sweden?

I have always hated the XPT/XPL seat colours and cabin. Am I the only one who thinks the interior looks like a mobile hospital emergency room?

This is what I will miss about the v sets. Wall to wall carpet and the right colour. I even liked the wood laminate panels that they had at one point.
ANR

A more modern Suspension system is how. I mentioned the XPL's already have a superior suspension and hopefully it will be much better with nearly 30 year later technology in the new regional train.

The noise you get in the Xplorers and Endeavours is from the engine and gearbox when accelerating. Most of the noise won't be applicable with the new set because of the diesel electric hybrid drivetrain. This will allow the train to accelerate away on the batteries and obviously when under the wires there will be no engine noise at all. There is also only 2 engines in the new train per 3 carriages instead of 3 engines and 3 generators per carriage as the Endeavour / Xplorer twins have.

The mock up is just that a mock up. It doesn't have any bogies and appear shorter then the real things will be. The same as the metro train mockup when it was being displayed. Also they actually appear to be quite nice with some good features. The slide down blinds will be extremely welcome in summer. https://www.facebook.com/my2lt/videos/501750704076494

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