The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Let's try having a renewable energy thread again.

America's recent 'deep freeze' has been sending the prices of gas and coal sky high because renewables simply can't cope. From The Australian (paywall - 17/2/2021):

Gas and power prices have spiked across the central U.S. while Texas regulators ordered rolling blackouts Monday as an Arctic blast has frozen wind turbines. Herein is the paradox of the left’s climate agenda: The less we use fossil fuels, the more we need them.

A mix of ice and snow swept across the country this weekend as temperatures plunged below zero in the upper Midwest and into the teens in Houston. Cold snaps happen — the U.S. also experienced a Polar Vortex in 2019 — as do heat waves. Yet the power grid is becoming less reliable due to growing reliance on wind and solar, which can’t provide power 24 hours a day, seven days a week...

...Enormous new demand coupled with constrained supply caused natural gas spot prices to spike to nearly $600 per million British thermal units in the central U.S. from about $3 a couple weeks ago. Future wholesale power prices in Texas for early this week soared to $9,000 per megawatt hour from a seasonal average of $25.

Prices jumped in the Midwest too, though less dramatically because there are more coal and nuclear plants. Illinois and Michigan have more gas storage than Texas, which exports much of its shale gas to other states and, increasingly, around the world in liquefied form.

Aren't renewables wonderful? You can feel good about saving the planet from a non-existent carbon dioxide threat while you freeze to death... meanwhile dirty old coal and gas actually keeps the wheels turning so that we can continue to have the intermittent contribution of renewables.

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  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Pull your pants up Scooter
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Wow that really was a comprehensive rebuttal wasn't it...
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Fact: it was gas power that failed, not renewables:
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Gas is supposed to be there in case renewables failed - and they did so spectacularly as you can see from this graph:


Saying that 'gas failed' is not taking into account the actual cause of the crisis which is that 'renewables' couldn't deliver in the first place.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Texas has one of the lowest renewable energy installations in the USA.

The State Govt privatised, deregulated, and removed it's grid from other interconnections to avoid Federal regulations. It was done to line the pockets of greedy energy companies in co-hoots with the said State Govt.

Don't go blaming renewables when the real finger should be pointed at Ted Cruz and his mates.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Texas has one of the lowest renewable energy installations in the USA.

The State Govt privatised, deregulated, and removed it's grid from other interconnections to avoid Federal regulations. It was done to line the pockets of greedy energy companies in co-hoots with the said State Govt.

Don't go blaming renewables when the real finger should be pointed at Ted Cruz and his mates.
Carnot
Nice deflection but no banana.

The reason gas failed was directly attributable to the fact that 'renewables' (which constituted a rather hefty proportion of the Texas energy task as I clearly showed in that graph) suddenly failed and then gas was expected to step up and fill the (huge) gap that remained - and couldn't.

The fundamental cause of the problem was the failure of renewables. No sheeting the blame home to extraneous factors like the on-call failure of gas, the lack of HV inter-connectors, the lack of political will to put even more money into renewables. Renewables failed. End-of-story.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Texas has one of the lowest renewable energy installations in the USA.

The State Govt privatised, deregulated, and removed it's grid from other interconnections to avoid Federal regulations. It was done to line the pockets of greedy energy companies in co-hoots with the said State Govt.

Don't go blaming renewables when the real finger should be pointed at Ted Cruz and his mates.
Nice deflection but no banana.

The reason gas failed was directly attributable to the fact that 'renewables' (which constituted a rather hefty proportion of the Texas energy task as I clearly showed in that graph) suddenly failed and then gas was expected to step up and fill the (huge) gap that remained - and couldn't.

The fundamental cause of the problem was the failure of renewables. No sheeting the blame home to extraneous factors like the on-call failure of gas, the lack of HV inter-connectors, the lack of political will to put even more money into renewables. Renewables failed. End-of-story.
don_dunstan
No, the reason the gas failed was because the oil refinery that supplied much of that gas failed.

Wind has been part of Texas mix for years and during natural periods of low wind the gas generators would have simply ramped up along with coal and nuclear to take the load, just like in the past. No one builds wind as a sole source of power supply. However this time it didn't happen because of the huge surge in demand and lack of gas from a frozen oil refinery. No more denials, its in the F'n media on both sides of the fence. The whole frozen wind turbine crap was only a short lived rant by a few anti RE brigade.

No one is saying some of the wind supply didn't fail due to heavy icing, what most here and in the media are saying is that the whole network and supply chain fell over as it simply wasn't up to withstanding the extreme cold and its not the first time. They have had multiple warnings over the years on this.

"The fundamental cause of the problem was the failure of renewables"
Don, thats the biggest pile of crap you have posted today, the whole bloody thing feel over, gas supply and power generation, coal, nuclear and wind, mostly due to a lack of winterization and lack of interconnectivity reserve.

Other states around Texas were exposed to similar weather conditions with similar levels of wind turbines and did not suffer major power outages due to winterization and interstate connectivity.

The true "End-of-story."
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Number one, I don't really read what you say Shane because it's too long-winded and fact-free.

Number two, if you look carefully at the graph that I posted you'll come to the same conclusion that I did which is that renewables failing placed a huge demand on everything else - which in turn couldn't cope because of the increased demand.

If renewables hadn't failed then everything else wouldn't have failed.

End-of-story.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Shane is right. Don is wrong on this one. End of story.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Look at the huge demand that was placed onto gas and coal after the almost complete failure of renewables on February 8th in Texas. If that hadn't happened then the cascade effect of other sources failing wouldn't have happened.

The fundamental cause is the unreliability of renewables. Trying to say that gas as an on-demand replacement was the cause of the failure is like saying:

"I'm late for work because the bus was late"
"But don't you usually drive?"
"Yeah but you can't expect my car to start every single time".
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Well, duh. They're getting paid, of course they're not going to complain.

Why find a study in Scotland, there's been research done in Australia: A Flinders University study found that wind farm noise travels an awfully long way - Fairfax (2020): Results from ongoing Flinders University research into turbine noise and sleep found that low-frequency pulsing from a South Australian wind farm was audible about 16 per cent of the time inside homes up to 3.5 kilometres from a turbine, including 22 per cent of the time at night.

The noise was audible 24 per cent of the time outside the homes. Recordings detected what complainants commonly describe as a pulsating, thumping or rumbling sound. The noise is technically known as amplitude modulation, and relates to a change in noise level that occurs approximately once per second as the turbine blade rotates. But they're only farmers and country folk so they don't matter - right?
Don Waffled
If the noise was stressful or lifestyle impacting, you can only be bought for so long.

A few case studies

1) Near my parents home, 4 - 5km across the water is the north coast rail between Woy Woy and Gosford. Walking to the bus stop at 6:00 am in the morning for school or later work at a certain location with direct line of sight I could here the electric commuter trains rumble between Point Claire and Gosford cross the the steel bridge and when up on the embankment. That's if there was no wind or traffic noise.
However going home at 5pm, no chance, guess why?

Are these trains impacting the quality of life of the residents in that area? Should the trains be stopped?

2) From the farm house my wife and I rented in Gladstone for 5 years, when there was no wind we could hear the rocks move through the cement plant because the tower was 150m tall, but as the crow flys, 5.1km away.

Should this plant be shut down?

3) My inlaws who have been living in their house on 10ac for 25 years, used to be peaceful, but the highway was realigned closer and elevated to their front gate. Previously it went on the other side of trees, 500m away from their front gate. The house now has higher levels of road noise, its hard to sleep during the day on that side of the house. Especially on weekends when the motorbikes go past. My MIL retired from nursing for a number of reasons (age 70), part was due to noise interrupting her sleep as she is a very very light sleeper.

the old curvy alignment had numerous accidents and deaths over the years when cars missed the turn or had a head on.

Should the highway be closed?


Yes on a farm with no other human or animal related background noise, you will likely hear a wind turbine for some distance if the conditions are right, i.e. elevation of the farm house, lack of tall vegetation, just enough wind to make the turbines move, but not too much to create noises in the trees and other there maybe some circumstances they can be heard 3.5km away especially if some of the turbines are in sync regarding blade position, but bloody hell these conditions would be bloody rare. Certainly none of the ones I've been next too.

If that one farm house is being affected as much as they say they are its just alignment of various unfortunate circumstances and yes if its sleep depriving compensation should be given, too a point. Maybe all the farm needs to have is some trees planted around the farm house?

However this is not an argument against the technology or its continued roll out.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Look at the huge demand that was placed onto gas and coal after the almost complete failure of renewables on February 8th in Texas. If that hadn't happened then the cascade effect of other sources failing wouldn't have happened.

The fundamental cause is the unreliability of renewables. Trying to say that gas as an on-demand replacement was the cause of the failure is like saying:

"I'm late for work because the bus was late"
"But don't you usually drive?"
"Yeah but you can't expect my car to start every single time".
don_dunstan
Wind is not a peak load technology, the designers know it, the industry knows it, the govt knows it. You are apparently just meeting the train that everyone else is on. Wind is a supplement for hydro and peaking gas.

If there is insufficient generation capacity its because of the lack of planning which is obvious because everything else in Texas failed. Wind, coal, gas, oil refinery's, nuclear and failure to connect to the national grid so as to avoid the standards that would have most likely prevented this in the first place. Wind didn't fail in the other 49 states or Canada Don, hello wake up time!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Number one, I don't really read what you say Shane because it's too long-winded and fact-free.

Number two, if you look carefully at the graph that I posted you'll come to the same conclusion that I did which is that renewables failing placed a huge demand on everything else - which in turn couldn't cope because of the increased demand.

If renewables hadn't failed then everything else wouldn't have failed.

End-of-story.
don_dunstan
#1 you read it

#2 it long because I don't make rash unsupported statements like you

#3 5min in Google and you will find plenty of facts along with endless numerous references and details on what happened to the gas supply, coal and nuclear operations, do you want me to go to the trouble of posting links for something you won't read?
  ANR Chief Commissioner

Coal powered generation would have helped.

Like everything else going on in the world, it pays to be a prepper. Not talking about buying truck loads of toilet paper.

Coals, properly seasoned firewood, spirit burners, LPG bottles, petrol/diesel generators etc. All can help with heating and cooking.

If something like this can happen in Texas, it can happen anywhere. Look at the SA grid meltdown in 2016 following the storm.

FWIW, SA is hotter than Texas.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Wind is not a peak load technology, the designers know it, the industry knows it, the govt knows it.
RTT_Rules
Not true, in fact that is exactly the policy that's being aimed for at both a state and federal level in this country. A hundred percent 'carbon free' future where we are completely reliant on renewables to provide all our energy requirements.

My own government here in South Australia has drunk the Kool Aid - they have a sincere belief that 100% renewables is technically possible, and wind is going to be the means by which we'll achieve this: Managing our energy future.

They intend to do that by cutting off air conditioners at peak times, denying the installation and use of appliances that use too much electricity, load-shedding and (of course) forcing more consumers to install home installations of solar (even though they reserve the right to purge those systems from the grid when they're not needed) and of course more generous subsidies for wind turbines on top of the million-odd dollars that each turbine gets from RET already. Doubling down on an already unreliable source.

Wonderful isn't it?
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
Let's try having a renewable energy thread again.
don_dunstan
Looks like just another thread where Don is right and everyone else is wrong. Ho hum...
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Wind is a supplement for hydro and peaking gas.
RTT_Rules
No - that's not what is being discussed in this country. In fact MP Zali Steggall wants to ban the use of natural gas in electricity generation - Member for Warringah

Zali Steggall MP is calling for the Morrison government’s decision to reset the COVID-19 recovery with gas to be rejected.

“This government is interfering in the market and not supporting the renewable industry,” she said.

“Today the Morrison government has captain’s picked the technology of gas, whilst blackmailing private companies on an economic decision that is widely condemned by scientists, economists and investors.

“This is completely against any kind of free market liberalism and shows how far Scott Morrison is willing to go to support fossil fuels over sound economic management and jobs.

“We need to transition away from coal and gas to mitigate increasing temperatures caused by climate change. Yet we have a government that is willing to ignore that renewables deliver more than double the jobs than fossil fuels, as well as disregarding the science, the industry and even investors.”

Not everyone is as much of a zealot as she is but there's certainly people who think the same as she does. They sincerely believe that we shouldn't have any sort of gas, coal or nuclear generation at all in this country.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Let's try having a renewable energy thread again.
Looks like just another thread where Don is right and everyone else is wrong. Ho hum...
Graham4405
God bless you, Graham. You're like those hecklers from the Muppet Show who pop in occasionally to express their disgust and then disappear again...

  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
So this thread is for the representative from SA to espouse lies and conspiracy theories regarding renewable energy.

Perhaps just close the thread with 2 links:

https://www.skynews.com.au/

https://www.foxnews.com/

I was going to post a link to Andrew Blot, unsurprisingly it took me to Sky news...funny that.

Mike.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Coal powered generation would have helped.
ANR
Except they're too cheap to put insulation in and it would have froze like the other non renewable power sources.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
God bless you, Graham. You're like those hecklers from the Muppet Show who pop in occasionally to express their disgust and then disappear again...
"don_dunstan"
There you are, Graham4405; it just shows that irony is wasted on him. Everything people say is swamped by the "I'm always right" credo. The term, "self opinionated" is not strong enough.

Now stand by  for another lecture.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
God bless you, Graham. You're like those hecklers from the Muppet Show who pop in occasionally to express their disgust and then disappear again...
There you are, Graham4405; it just shows that irony is wasted on him. Everything people say is swamped by the "I'm always right" credo. The term, "self opinionated" is not strong enough.

Now stand by  for another lecture.
Valvegear
Lecture, is too intellectual a word for what he puts out. Inconsistent conspiracy-esque ramblings, disguised as having a shred of intellectualism would be a closer description.

Prepare for the comments on the green left and denial of the excepted scientific facts and realities.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Look at the huge demand that was placed onto gas and coal after the almost complete failure of renewables on February 8th in Texas. If that hadn't happened then the cascade effect of other sources failing wouldn't have happened.

The fundamental cause is the unreliability of renewables. Trying to say that gas as an on-demand replacement was the cause of the failure is like saying:

"I'm late for work because the bus was late"
"But don't you usually drive?"
"Yeah but you can't expect my car to start every single time".
don_dunstan
From wiki citing various sources including NYT.

The winter storm caused a record low temperature at Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport of −2 °F (−19 °C) on February 16, the coldest in North Texas in 72 years.[23] Power equipment in Texas was not winterized, leaving it vulnerable to extended periods of cold weather.[24][25]

Texas Governor Greg Abbott and some other politicians initially blamed renewable energy sources for the power outages, citing frozen wind turbines as an example of their unreliability.[26]

Governor Abbott later acknowledged that every source of power, not just renewable ones, had failed.[26] Five times more natural gas than wind power had been lost.[28]

When power was cut, it disabled some compressors that push gas through pipelines, knocking out further gas plants due to lack of supply.[29]

However, renewable energy accounts for only 23% of Texas power output;[27] moreover, equipment for other energy sources such as natural gas pipelines freezing were more responsible.[26]

Viral images of a helicopter de-icing a Texas wind turbine were actually an image from Sweden taken in 2015.[27]

During the 2011 Groundhog Day blizzard, Texas had faced similar power outages due to frozen power equipment, after which the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission reported that more winterizing of power infrastructure was necessary.[25] ERCOT said that some generators since then implemented new winter "best practices," but these were on a voluntary basis and mandatory regulation had not been established.[25]



Ok, so lets summarise
- The Texas Gov initially made a base less and incorrect claim for which the likes of Don fell for.
- Photos on the internet showing deicing of wind turbines was not even Texas for which the like of Don fell for.
- The issue had happened before prior to the bulk of the wind farms in Texax for which the likes of Don denied.
- The state had failed to act on a Fed Energy Commission from the previous incident, rather remaining disconnected from the country network to avoid being forced to act.
- 5 x more gas failed than wind in part due to a serious of other systematic and equipment failures for which Don denies.

End of Story?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Wind is not a peak load technology, the designers know it, the industry knows it, the govt knows it.
Not true, in fact that is exactly the policy that's being aimed for at both a state and federal level in this country. A hundred percent 'carbon free' future where we are completely reliant on renewables to provide all our energy requirements.

My own government here in South Australia has drunk the Kool Aid - they have a sincere belief that 100% renewables is technically possible, and wind is going to be the means by which we'll achieve this: Managing our energy future.

They intend to do that by cutting off air conditioners at peak times, denying the installation and use of appliances that use too much electricity, load-shedding and (of course) forcing more consumers to install home installations of solar (even though they reserve the right to purge those systems from the grid when they're not needed) and of course more generous subsidies for wind turbines on top of the million-odd dollars that each turbine gets from RET already. Doubling down on an already unreliable source.

Wonderful isn't it?
don_dunstan
Aiming for 100% carbon free is just a vision Don. The how, when and where needs to follow, ie detail on how this is achieved and what time frame.

Sth can very much have solely have wind and solar with a large intertie to NSW snowy hydro as a battery plus increased use of self chemical batteries + large industrial sized ones as the price and technology become more viable. Again it called time frames.

I did not see anywhere in that link that you will be forced to switch of AC, however peak times have a cost and these costs need to be reflected to the consumer, not subsidised. So if at 7pm power costs $300/MW to generate, then yes your whole component of your bill at this time should be 30c/kW + transmission and distribution costs. Currently most customers are protected by social equality power pricing for example

- The cost of the local distribution. mostly a fixed price should be on your bill. Actual cost, not a made a number. This would equate to at least $2-3/day.

- Cost of HV transmission, based on your approximate Geographic location to reflect the cost of getting grid power to you and yes it also covers the cost of extra HV system to cover the cost of a more geographic generation network, ie wind farms, hydro etc etc spread all over the place.

- Cost of actual generation or wholesale price, which is currently a minor component in your bill. On average this year in SA, cost of generation is about 2c/kWh, but has peaks and in some cases negatives.

Back to Texas some consumers had switched to being fully exposed to the whole sale price so as to manage their power usage with the grid traded price and make huge financial gains. But during the storm when the wholesale price hit $9000/MWh, they got hit with bills as much as $1000/day.

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