Table Top Crossing Loop - Removal

 
  CPH8 Junior Train Controller

Sorry......the post about the silo was in reference to the 1963 Geurie collision. The Garratt was pushed against the adjacent wheat silo, knocking a hole in it which was subsequently patched. That patch is still visible

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  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Albury looks a wasteland when it had so much traffic available.    So sad to see it fail like that.
NSWGR8022

Lets put it into context - Albury only had that many sidings etc as it was a transfer point between gauges.  If we all had one gauge  it never would have existed like it did.
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
Albury looks a wasteland when it had so much traffic available.    So sad to see it fail like that.

Lets put it into context - Albury only had that many sidings etc as it was a transfer point between gauges.  If we all had one gauge  it never would have existed like it did.
james.au
Even if there was only one gauge from 1854, Albury would have still been an engine and crew changeover point, like Serviceton on VIC/SA border which was always one gauge.

Also, now  that Table Top has gone, should we start an Ettamogah Rail Hub thread?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'... Also, now  that Table Top has gone, should we start an Ettamogah Rail Hub thread? ... '
No doubt I am missing something but 'what for' ?
What goes on at Ettamogah?
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
'... Also, now  that Table Top has gone, should we start an Ettamogah Rail Hub thread? ... '
No doubt I am missing something but 'what for' ?
What goes on at Ettamogah?
YM-Mundrabilla
Ettamogah is a freight hub with many sidings and enough business to justify a shunting engine (Y151). It is just  about to get a 3420m long Arrival road to handle 1800m long trains.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Sorry......the post about the silo was in reference to the 1963 Geurie collision. The Garratt was pushed against the adjacent wheat silo, knocking a hole in it which was subsequently patched. That patch is still visible
CPH8
Yes, that happened, but Geurie is between Wellington and Dubbo in the central west of NSW.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
'... Also, now  that Table Top has gone, should we start an Ettamogah Rail Hub thread? ... '
No doubt I am missing something but 'what for' ?
What goes on at Ettamogah?
Ettamogah is a freight hub with many sidings and enough business to justify a shunting engine (Y151). It is just  about to get a 3420m long Arrival road to handle 1800m long trains.
WimbledonW
Barnarwartha, Dooen, Dubbo, Werris Creek, Acacia Ridge, Tottenham, and a long list of intermodal terminals are therefore all deserving of their own thread.

Which means none of them are.  So lets not have an Ettamogah one.

The infrastructure works were the interesting part.  Not the operation of the terminal.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW

Even if there was only one gauge from 1854, Albury would have still been an engine and crew changeover point, like Serviceton on VIC/SA border which was always one gauge.
WimbledonW
Would it have been?  Who knows what a single gauge network would have looked like.  NSWGR and VR might have operated differently.  Even if it was, it wouldnt have been as big as it was as crew change doesnt need that much space.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'... Also, now  that Table Top has gone, should we start an Ettamogah Rail Hub thread? ... '
No doubt I am missing something but 'what for' ?
What goes on at Ettamogah?
Ettamogah is a freight hub with many sidings and enough business to justify a shunting engine (Y151). It is just  about to get a 3420m long Arrival road to handle 1800m long trains.
WimbledonW
I don't doubt what you say that:

' Ettamogah is a freight hub with many sidings and enough business to justify a shunting engine (Y151). It is just  about to get a 3420m long Arrival road to handle 1800m long trains.'

Forgive my ignorance but what is the business and how is it handled train servicewise?
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
Albury looks a wasteland when it had so much traffic available.    So sad to see it fail like that.

Lets put it into context - Albury only had that many sidings etc as it was a transfer point between gauges.  If we all had one gauge  it never would have existed like it did.
Even if there was only one gauge from 1854, Albury would have still been an engine and crew changeover point, like Serviceton on VIC/SA border which was always one gauge.

Also, now  that Table Top has gone, should we start an Ettamogah Rail Hub thread?
WimbledonW
Yeah, like how you wanted to split the Inland Rail Construction Thread into thirteen separate threads. It ain't going to happen.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Forgive my ignorance but what is the business and how is it handled train servicewise?
YM-Mundrabilla

Ettamogah handles intermodal and is serviced by PN with various trains - usually the Griffith services (MC/CM).
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Forgive my ignorance but what is the business and how is it handled train servicewise?

Ettamogah handles intermodal and is serviced by PN with various trains - usually the Griffith services (MC/CM).
Fatty
Thanks Comrade.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
'... Also, now  that Table Top has gone, should we start an Ettamogah Rail Hub thread? ... '
No doubt I am missing something but 'what for' ?
What goes on at Ettamogah?
YM-Mundrabilla
What happens at Ettamogah, stays at Ettamogah. Laughing

Split off the list @WimbledonW created into its' own thread, it is a useful list to have it all in one place if needed.
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
'... Also, now  that Table Top has gone, should we start an Ettamogah Rail Hub thread? ... '
No doubt I am missing something but 'what for' ?
What goes on at Ettamogah?
What happens at Ettamogah, stays at Ettamogah. Laughing

Split off the list @WimbledonW created into its' own thread, it is a useful list to have it all in one place if needed.
KRviator
"Australian Intermodal Terminal List" didn't appear at first in "New Forum Posts" so WimbledonW had to reply to his own post.

This may count as a small bug, easily overcome.

For list see: https://www.railpage.com.au/f-po-editpost-2208244.htm
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
"Australian Intermodal Terminal List" didn't appear at first in "New Forum Posts" so WimbledonW had to reply to his own post.

This may count as a small bug, easily overcome.

For list see: https://www.railpage.com.au/f-po-editpost-2208244.htm
WimbledonW
It wouldn't.

AIUI the forum architecture, it shows new posts since you've last visited. As your post wasn't new to you, it wouldn't be visible to you, however, should someone log in who has not been online since last week, then it would be visible to them.

As it is, your link is wrong. It takes you to your post, true, but tries to have the user edit your post, which, apart from RP staff, cannot be done, so a standard member clicking your link will be presented with an error.

The actual thread can be found at http://Railpage.com.au/f-t11402409.htm
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
"Australian Intermodal Terminal List" didn't appear at first in "New Forum Posts" so WimbledonW had to reply to his own post.

This may count as a small bug, easily overcome.

For list see: https://www.railpage.com.au/f-po-editpost-2208244.htm
It wouldn't.

AIUI the forum architecture, it shows new posts since you've last visited. As your post wasn't new to you, it wouldn't be visible to you, however, should someone log in who has not been online since last week, then it would be visible to them.

As it is, your link is wrong. It takes you to your post, true, but tries to have the user edit your post, which, apart from RP staff, cannot be done, so a standard member clicking your link will be presented with an error.

The actual thread can be found at http://Railpage.com.au/f-t11402409.htm
KRviator
The AITL contains the following spurious text:
"Unable to parse malformed url: http://www.railpage.com.au:intermodal?showmeta=true
/srv/Railpage.com.au/www/public_html/vendor/guzzlehttp/guzzle/src/Url.php
39
"
This spurious text is invisible when editing the post. Can you please purge it from AITL? Thanks.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
The AITL contains the following spurious text:
"Unable to parse malformed url: http://www.railpage.com.au:intermodal?showmeta=true
/srv/Railpage.com.au/www/public_html/vendor/guzzlehttp/guzzle/src/Url.php
39
"
This spurious text is invisible when editing the post. Can you please purge it from AITL? Thanks.
WimbledonW
The RP software automatically embeds a hyperlink when it recognises one. You tried to have it display something it couldn't using the :intermodal extension to the URL. I removed that and your post over there is now syntactically correct and reads properly to a human.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled viewing please. About the loop & Ettamogah, et al. Smile
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner


Even if there was only one gauge from 1854, Albury would have still been an engine and crew changeover point, like Serviceton on VIC/SA border which was always one gauge.Would it have been?  Who knows what a single gauge network would have looked like.  NSWGR and VR might have operated differently.  Even if it was, it wouldnt have been as big as it was as crew change doesnt need that much space.
james.au
Who knows? The two states may have cooperated to the extent they did at Serviceton. Wodonga was established first, so NSW may have agreed to exchange trains there, and have their locos serviced at the Wodonga depot. A modest station and yard would then have been sufficient to service the requirements of Albury.

However, there are differences between Serviceton and Albury/Wodonga.

The Murray River as a physical barrier reinforces in the mind the idea of a border, and NSW with its grand station may have wanted to impose its supposed superiority as the 'senior' colony, therefore was always going to establish a significant station and yard.

The other matter is both sides of the Murray are very productive in terms of primary and secondary industry, so a range of sidings was required to service said industry, without considering any break of gauge facilities.
Granted, the Serviceton area is a significant producer of grain.

Why was Serviceton established at all? Couldn't the VR have run as far as the already established Wolesley, only 3 miles into SA. Could it have been that VIC wanted to reinforce its will upon the newer colony?
  CPH8 Junior Train Controller

Serviceton was established because the border was originally incorrectly surveyed. The correct survey moved the border eastwards to where Serviceton is now, away from Bordertown.
  WimbledonW Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney
Why was Serviceton established at all? Couldn't the VR have run as far as the already established Wolesley, only 3 miles into SA. Could it have been that VIC wanted to reinforce its will upon the newer colony?

SA was founded in 1838  while Vic separated from NSW in 1851. Hence SA was the older colony SmileSad
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Serviceton was established because the border was originally incorrectly surveyed. The correct survey moved the border eastwards to where Serviceton is now, away from Bordertown.
CPH8
Wasn't it a case that SA built Serviceton station inside Victoria by mistake? Or something along those lines anyway. There is certainly history to Serviceton and the Vic/SA border.
Surely we are way off the original not easily understood topic here.
  Campaspe 2 Junior Train Controller

Hello,

I was having another look at Fatty's excellent Albury video and the following expands on James.au notes on this video (where he has indicated the time that things can be seen) from the start up until the start of Albury yard.

0:04: 638 Km Post (all kilometre posts are on the left hand side of the track).
0:23: Signal Post
0:28: Half kilometre post.
0:50: 639 Km Post
1:05: Thurgoona Drive overbridge.
1:07: The former Thurgoona Drive level crossing.
1:10: The rough start of the former Kinloss Loop
1:38: 640 Km Post (Goes by very quickly)
2:00: Half kilometre post
2:02: Un-named waterway.
2:08: Signal Post (AY 164)
2:20: The former Gerogery Road level crossing and Gate Keepers cottage (I think that someone still lives in the cottage)
2:24: 641 Km Post
2:34: Racecourse Road overbridge
2:48: Half kilometre post
3:03: Underbridge for Shared User Path
3:09: Start of Albury Racecourse Siding (1881 - 1890) on right hand side. Albury Racecourse Platform (1881 - 1962) was on the left hand side (somewhere around 3:14?)
3:14: 642 Km Post
3:31: Signal Post (AY 163)
3:38: Half kilometre post and waterway. Aerial wires cross the line to the eastern side.
3:52: Waterway.
4:03: 643 kilometre post
4:10 - 4:15: Site of Dairy Farmers Siding (1952 - 1987) on the right hand side of the line. Note the wider formation. The Hume Reservoir Siding (1933 - 1938) was on the opposite (left) side of the line, but there doesn't appear to be any obvious signs of this siding. I understand that the last section of the Dairy Farmers factory was removed in the mid-2000s.
4:17: Fallon Street overbridge.
4:27: Half kilometre post. Aerial wires cross to western side of the line.
4:35: Waterway
4:40: Livestock Siding (1881 - 1987) starts on the left hand side of the line. The Southern Portland Cement Siding (1962 - 1987) was an extension of the Livestock Siding at the Albury end.
4:53: 644 Km Post
4:49: North Street overbridge and signals.
5:19: Half kilometre post
5:32: Start of Albury Yard / waterway

The overline bridges were all completed in around 2006 as part of the Hume Freeway project.

I hope that this is of use.

Kind Regards

Campaspe
  a6et Minister for Railways

Hello,

I was having another look at Fatty's excellent Albury video and the following expands on James.au notes on this video (where he has indicated the time that things can be seen) from the start up until the start of Albury yard.

0:04: 638 Km Post (all kilometre posts are on the left hand side of the track).
0:23: Signal Post
0:28: Half kilometre post.
0:50: 639 Km Post
1:05: Thurgoona Drive overbridge.
1:07: The former Thurgoona Drive level crossing.
1:10: The rough start of the former Kinloss Loop
1:38: 640 Km Post (Goes by very quickly)
2:00: Half kilometre post
2:02: Un-named waterway.
2:08: Signal Post (AY 164)
2:20: The former Gerogery Road level crossing and Gate Keepers cottage (I think that someone still lives in the cottage)
2:24: 641 Km Post
2:34: Racecourse Road overbridge
2:48: Half kilometre post
3:03: Underbridge for Shared User Path
3:09: Start of Albury Racecourse Siding (1881 - 1890) on right hand side. Albury Racecourse Platform (1881 - 1962) was on the left hand side (somewhere around 3:14?)
3:14: 642 Km Post
3:31: Signal Post (AY 163)
3:38: Half kilometre post and waterway. Aerial wires cross the line to the eastern side.
3:52: Waterway.
4:03: 643 kilometre post
4:10 - 4:15: Site of Dairy Farmers Siding (1952 - 1987) on the right hand side of the line. Note the wider formation. The Hume Reservoir Siding (1933 - 1938) was on the opposite (left) side of the line, but there doesn't appear to be any obvious signs of this siding. I understand that the last section of the Dairy Farmers factory was removed in the mid-2000s.
4:17: Fallon Street overbridge.
4:27: Half kilometre post. Aerial wires cross to western side of the line.
4:35: Waterway
4:40: Livestock Siding (1881 - 1987) starts on the left hand side of the line. The Southern Portland Cement Siding (1962 - 1987) was an extension of the Livestock Siding at the Albury end.
4:53: 644 Km Post
4:49: North Street overbridge and signals.
5:19: Half kilometre post
5:32: Start of Albury Yard / waterway

The overline bridges were all completed in around 2006 as part of the Hume Freeway project.

I hope that this is of use.

Kind Regards

Campaspe
Campaspe 2
The Km & intermediate posts, were/are always have been on that side of the line, both on single and double lines, other words are located on the Down side of the line, across the state.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Serviceton was established because the border was originally incorrectly surveyed. The correct survey moved the border eastwards to where Serviceton is now, away from Bordertown.
Wasn't it a case that SA built Serviceton station inside Victoria by mistake? Or something along those lines anyway. There is certainly history to Serviceton and the Vic/SA border.
Surely we are way off the original not easily understood topic here.
YM-Mundrabilla

Definitely off topic, but just so people don't get the wrong idea.

The SA/Vic border was originally located too far west. Eventually this was realised and SA and Victoria started a squabble about whether it was "finders keepers" (Vic) or "fulfill the agreement" (SA). The squabble went all the way to the Privy Council in the UK who decided in Victoria's favour - that's why the NSW/Vic/SA border up at the Murray has an odd kink in it.

In the meantime the through railway had been constructed. It was agreed that the border station would be located in the disputed territory. Victoria built it and paid for it. When the dispute was settled, SA paid half the cost - eventually. The station would have been handed over to SA if they'd won.
  historian Deputy Commissioner


Even if there was only one gauge from 1854, Albury would have still been an engine and crew changeover point, like Serviceton on VIC/SA border which was always one gauge.Would it have been?  Who knows what a single gauge network would have looked like.  NSWGR and VR might have operated differently.  Even if it was, it wouldnt have been as big as it was as crew change doesnt need that much space.Who knows? The two states may have cooperated to the extent they did at Serviceton. Wodonga was established first, so NSW may have agreed to exchange trains there, and have their locos serviced at the Wodonga depot. A modest station and yard would then have been sufficient to service the requirements of Albury.
Lockspike

My suggestion is that there would be very little difference to the eventual arrangements even if NSW hadn't reneged on the agreeement to use a standard gauge across Australia.

Remember that when the track was eventually connected across the Murray, the states co-operated to the extent that northbound traffic was exchanged in Albury and southbound in Wodonga. That's why there were broad and standard gauge crossings of the Murray, and this was the original purpose of the Tallangatta dock at Wodonga (it was the standard gauge dock - just like the broad gauge dock at Albury). After a couple of years sense took hold and passengers and freight were exchanged at Albury, and livestock at Wodonga. Victoria liked it this way as 1) the cattle yards and sales were in Victoria and 2) Victorian trains served Albury and no doubt captured a large part of the traffic. No doubt the good citizens of Albury liked it this way too.

If there had only been one gauge, trains would still have been exchanged at the border. Two depots would have been provided - this would have kept the staff wages on the correct side of the border in each case. Operationally, then it would have made sense for intrastate trains to start from their respective sides, with Albury freight tripped across the border just as it was with the gauge difference. There would have been interstate exchange sidings at one or both stations - but probably not of great extent as the trade between the colonies (what little there was) was primarily seaborne as the rates were much cheaper.

The big facilities difference would probably have been 1) no Wodonga Coal Sidings, and 2) much reduced exchange sidings opposite the platform at Albury and at the northern end of the yard.

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