Upgrades to deliver more train services for Gippsland

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 18 Mar 2021 07:35
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Lots of coin has been invested by V/Line into the Gippsland Line
NSWGR8022
What has V/Line invested in the Gippsland line?

Does not sound like there is a plan for more services for often for Gippsland ?
freightgate
40 minute off peak services is still the aim, its currently hourly.

what is passenger loading like on the Gippsland line?
bevans
The V/Line annual report (which can be found here https://corporate.vline.com.au/About-V-Line/Publications ) shows the Gippsland line having the second lowest patronage of them all. Despite large population growth patronage has remained pretty much stagnant, which is hardly surprising given the amount of complete line closures and regular evening bustitution's the line has been subject too over the last few years. Add to that the appallingly slow travel times which make it quicker to drive for most of the day than catch the train, there really isn't much of an enticement to use the service.

That was an opportunity squandered.
Duncs
Agree with this. Even if it wasn't built at the time due to the political/NIMBY factor, the design should have allowed for easy construction of a 3rd or 4th track. I've heard pro skyrail people say that it was designed with additional tracks in mind but when pushed no one has been able to provide one bit of evidence that that it is true. From what I see from the cab the newly built sections will need to pulled down and rebuilt or unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.

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  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.
jakar
THIS is the sole reason the already contraversal CTD project was only two tracks. Imagine trying to push through 4 tracks on a touchy issue at the time.

I have seen some of the planning documents in the past, and to get 3 or 4 tracks would need property aquisition in a lot of places.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.
THIS is the sole reason the already contraversal CTD project was only two tracks. Imagine trying to push through 4 tracks on a touchy issue at the time.

I have seen some of the planning documents in the past, and to get 3 or 4 tracks would need property aquisition in a lot of places.
speedemon08
Don't disagree with that at all, my problem is that instead of having two viaducts for 4 tracks they're going to end up with 4 viaducts for 4 tracks or have to do a complete rebuild to get 4 tracks on two viaducts.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean


That was an opportunity squandered.
Agree with this. Even if it wasn't built at the time due to the political/NIMBY factor, the design should have allowed for easy construction of a 3rd or 4th track. I've heard pro skyrail people say that it was designed with additional tracks in mind but when pushed no one has been able to provide one bit of evidence that that it is true. From what I see from the cab the newly built sections will need to pulled down and rebuilt or unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.
jakar
There are other solutions. There is actually plenty of room at some of the remaining ground level sections between Dandenong and Caulfield for passing loops to be constructed. Presumably a modern signalling system and some switched on operators at Metrol could then enable a much faster running time for V-Line trains between those stations.
  Djebel Junior Train Controller



That was an opportunity squandered.
Agree with this. Even if it wasn't built at the time due to the political/NIMBY factor, the design should have allowed for easy construction of a 3rd or 4th track. I've heard pro skyrail people say that it was designed with additional tracks in mind but when pushed no one has been able to provide one bit of evidence that that it is true. From what I see from the cab the newly built sections will need to pulled down and rebuilt or unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.There are other solutions. There is actually plenty of room at some of the remaining ground level sections between Dandenong and Caulfield for passing loops to be constructed. Presumably a modern signalling system and some switched on operators at Metrol could then enable a much faster running time for V-Line trains between those stations.
DirtyBallast
Let us know if you ever find any of those.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.
THIS is the sole reason the already contraversal CTD project was only two tracks. Imagine trying to push through 4 tracks on a touchy issue at the time.

I have seen some of the planning documents in the past, and to get 3 or 4 tracks would need property aquisition in a lot of places.
speedemon08
A double track pair would mostly be built along the Southern side of the existing tracks, apart from a section at the Caulfeild end and at Chandler Road at Yarraman Railway Station.

But the elephant In the room Is 4 tracks would go down to 2 tracks at Caulfield plus the staggering cost and NIMBY's

Just about all the level crossing removal projects have been like for like, In terms of railway track layout (single track lines have had duplication factored Into bridge designs)
  Upven Junior Train Controller

Since this is a topic on the Gippsland line, I wondered if anyone else shared my half-cooked theory. I noticed a while ago that the Infrastructure map for the federally funded Melbourne to Traralgon Faster Rail Business Case strangely follows a very different line to the railway itself. Which is even more odd when you see the regional revival package for Gippsland on the same website does follow the railway.

Melbourne to Traralgon Faster Business Rail Case



Regional Rail Revival Gippsland


AEMO Transmission Line Map


Am I crazy or is the business case going to suggest this?
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out

Upven
That first picture has the whole line transposed north of where it should be on a map. The start of the line is uh... nowhere near the CBD. And for all intensive purposes the Gippsland line is fairly straight compared to others, asides from the curves near Drouin/Warragul and Moe-Morwell
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.
THIS is the sole reason the already contraversal CTD project was only two tracks. Imagine trying to push through 4 tracks on a touchy issue at the time.

I have seen some of the planning documents in the past, and to get 3 or 4 tracks would need property aquisition in a lot of places.
speedemon08
Gladys can show them how to resume property!
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner


That was an opportunity squandered.
Agree with this. Even if it wasn't built at the time due to the political/NIMBY factor, the design should have allowed for easy construction of a 3rd or 4th track. I've heard pro skyrail people say that it was designed with additional tracks in mind but when pushed no one has been able to provide one bit of evidence that that it is true. From what I see from the cab the newly built sections will need to pulled down and rebuilt or unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.
Nothing to do with politics, as much as everyone here wants a gold plated Gippsland service the current government or any future government will not sink the coin in for 3/4 trains an hour.
If we stick to the CTD section, Carnegie - The entirety of Rosstown road would need to go, 38 properties. The suburb average for a 1 bedroom unit is a smidge over $1M, so let's say $40 million for that 500 metre stretch. Hundreds of properties, shops and warehouses would need to be acquired between Caulfield and  Dandenong, with some tight sections out in the burbs. Before a single dollar is spent on construction hundreds of millions, if not close to a billion would need to be spend on acquisition. That is a lot of money and cheesed of people for a 20 minute V/lo and a hand full of freight services.

More work can be done to improve track conditions and reduce running time before the Metro boundary. The current RRR package doesn't ever scratch the surface of improvements needed. The government needs to invest in class 1, 160km/h running on a fully duplicated track pair from Pakenham to Traralgon, then on to Bairnsdale. Six car V/los every 20 minutes during the peak will be more than enough for the next 20 years.

Lockie
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne

That was an opportunity squandered.
Agree with this. Even if it wasn't built at the time due to the political/NIMBY factor, the design should have allowed for easy construction of a 3rd or 4th track. I've heard pro skyrail people say that it was designed with additional tracks in mind but when pushed no one has been able to provide one bit of evidence that that it is true. From what I see from the cab the newly built sections will need to pulled down and rebuilt or unnecessarily large amounts of property will need to be acquired to build additional tracks.Nothing to do with politics, as much as everyone here wants a gold plated Gippsland service the current government or any future government will not sink the coin in for 3/4 trains an hour.
If we stick to the CTD section, Carnegie - The entirety of Rosstown road would need to go, 38 properties. The suburb average for a 1 bedroom unit is a smidge over $1M, so let's say $40 million for that 500 metre stretch. Hundreds of properties, shops and warehouses would need to be acquired between Caulfield and  Dandenong, with some tight sections out in the burbs. Before a single dollar is spent on construction hundreds of millions, if not close to a billion would need to be spend on acquisition. That is a lot of money and cheesed of people for a 20 minute V/lo and a hand full of freight services.

More work can be done to improve track conditions and reduce running time before the Metro boundary. The current RRR package doesn't ever scratch the surface of improvements needed. The government needs to invest in class 1, 160km/h running on a fully duplicated track pair from Pakenham to Traralgon, then on to Bairnsdale. Six car V/los every 20 minutes during the peak will be more than enough for the next 20 years.

Lockie
Lockie91
No one is wanting a gold plated service, just a service that is faster than a tractor.

The rail reserve between Oakleigh and Dandenong for the most part is wide enough for additional track(s) without property acquisition.

Upgrading the Nth line on the down side of Pakenham from 130km/h to 160km/h would be nice to have but will achieve little in reducing travel times. Between Warragul and Moe is the only location that would see any meaningful benefits, the rest either has curves or due to the close spacing of stations you only get to around 135-140km/h before braking for the next stop. Currently the only place to reduce travel times by a large amount is the Metro area, in particular the Caulfield to Dandenong section.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
No one is wanting a gold plated service, just a service that is faster than a tractor.

The rail reserve between Oakleigh and Dandenong for the most part is wide enough for additional track(s) without property acquisition.
......
Currently the only place to reduce travel times by a large amount is the Metro area, in particular the Caulfield to Dandenong section.
jakar
Since the TT for that stretch is 26 minutes for the 20km, precisely how much is the "large amount" to be saved by some exclusive tracks???

Lets be generous and say 10 minutes. Really !!!

With double track all the way to Moe soon to be realised, sensibly planned stopping patterns of Express and SAS will deliver far more.
Doubling to Traralgon ~25km would be even better.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Would it be more economically and spatially viable to quad Dandenong to Pakenham?  Country trains used to reach full speed once past Dandenong, but with a 10 minute frequency to Pakenham being introduced, V/Line trains will catch up with suburban trains no matter how you schedule them.  The additional tracks will always allow V/Line trains to overtake one or two suburban trains.  The V/Line stop at Berwick can be withdrawn once Pakenham gets the 10 minute frequency if this isn't done yet.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Would it be more economically and spatially viable to quad Dandenong to Pakenham?  Country trains used to reach full speed once past Dandenong, but with a 10 minute frequency to Pakenham being introduced, V/Line trains will catch up with suburban trains no matter how you schedule them.  The additional tracks will always allow V/Line trains to overtake one or two suburban trains.  The V/Line stop at Berwick can be withdrawn once Pakenham gets the 10 minute frequency if this isn't done yet.
route14
I doubt they will spend the required Billions to benefit mostly only VLine passengers.

The stop all stations train journey will end up being quicker (during the daytime) than a car journey on the Monash Freeway or Princes Highway (pretty much no more room to squeeze anymore lanes under the many overpasses on the fwy)
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Would it be more economically and spatially viable to quad Dandenong to Pakenham?  Country trains used to reach full speed once past Dandenong, but with a 10 minute frequency to Pakenham being introduced, V/Line trains will catch up with suburban trains no matter how you schedule them.  The additional tracks will always allow V/Line trains to overtake one or two suburban trains.  The V/Line stop at Berwick can be withdrawn once Pakenham gets the 10 minute frequency if this isn't done yet.
route14
Same question, different stretch.

TT 19 minutes for 27km. What is the "large amount" to be saved?
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Since the TT for that stretch is 26 minutes for the 20km, precisely how much is the "large amount" to be saved by some exclusive tracks??? Lets be generous and say 10 minutes. Really !!!  
justarider
Time through the section extends out to 32+ minutes during peak which equates to an average speed of 36.39km/h to travel the 19.408 kilometers. That speed is more what you'd find on a tourist railway than a modern mainline. Even out of peak at 26 minutes the average speed is just 44.78km/h. No matter which way you spin it its appallingly slow and its beyond me how anyone can find that acceptable.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Since the TT for that stretch is 26 minutes for the 20km, precisely how much is the "large amount" to be saved by some exclusive tracks??? Lets be generous and say 10 minutes. Really !!!  
Time through the section extends out to 32+ minutes during peak which equates to an average speed of 36.39km/h to travel the 19.408 kilometers. That speed is more what you'd find on a tourist railway than a modern mainline. Even out of peak at 26 minutes the average speed is just 44.78km/h. No matter which way you spin it its appallingly slow and its beyond me how anyone can find that acceptable.
jakar
Is not CBTC being installed to sort out the unacceptable variations to TT?

The question remains. How much time could realistically be saved, and does that justify the enormous cost of quad tracks ?

45kph sounds typical Metro. Suppose vline could always terminate at the boundary if that is so offensive.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Are we being rash in assuming/believing that infrastructure improvements will ACTUALLY translate into a better service?
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Since the TT for that stretch is 26 minutes for the 20km, precisely how much is the "large amount" to be saved by some exclusive tracks??? Lets be generous and say 10 minutes. Really !!!  
Time through the section extends out to 32+ minutes during peak which equates to an average speed of 36.39km/h to travel the 19.408 kilometers. That speed is more what you'd find on a tourist railway than a modern mainline. Even out of peak at 26 minutes the average speed is just 44.78km/h. No matter which way you spin it its appallingly slow and its beyond me how anyone can find that acceptable.
Is not CBTC being installed to sort out the unacceptable variations to TT?

The question remains. How much time could realistically be saved, and does that justify the enormous cost of quad tracks ?

45kph sounds typical Metro. Suppose vline could always terminate at the boundary if that is so offensive.
justarider
CBTC will just squeeze maximum TPH out of the line by reducing the headways. Currently Fixed Block, going to moving block. However, this will not be installed in the V/line fleet so there will still be line side signalling and traditional Fixed Blocks that the HCMTS will have to work around.

Let's see how good my maths is. Laughing

The current South Line is a mix of class 2 (130Km/h), 2U (115km/h) and 1 (160km/h). Braking distance at 160km/h for a Vlo is 550m.

The current morning express from Traralgon (0519) to the Pakenham MTM Boundary takes 61 minutes. At a distance of 98km gives an average speed of just 96km/h. If the average speed was increased to 130Km/h this reduces the average time to 45 minutes. If that was pushed to 150Km/h (pushing it with braking distance for the 5 stations) travel time is reduced to 39 minutes.

This pushes the total travel time closer to 90 minutes as opposed to the 120 it currently is.

Pakenham to Dandenong is 26km. There is plenty of space to build a dedicated track pair for V/Line through to Dandenong. At 130km/h this reduces the running time from 22 minutes to 11.

With a decent two tier service (local & express), track upgrades and easing of a few curves you can shave almost 30 minutes of the running time with out the need to spend billions on acquisitions. Bringing the whole line up to Class 1 and a dedicated track to Dandenong would cost about the same, but money well spent.

Speed is only half the issue, reliability is the biggest one. Most can put up with a slightly longer journey if they know day in day the train will arrive/depart on time. Cancellations and delays are what put people off.

Spare a thought for the poor folk out at Bairnsdale, 90 minutes to Traralgon gives them an average speed of 77km/h. Class two track would slash that to 53 Minutes.

Lockie
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'... Speed is only half the issue, reliability is the biggest one. Most can put up with a slightly longer journey if they know day in day the train will arrive/depart on time. Cancellations and delays are what put people off. ...'

This is they key to the success of everything rail related (both passenger and freight).
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
'... Speed is only half the issue, reliability is the biggest one. Most can put up with a slightly longer journey if they know day in day the train will arrive/depart on time. Cancellations and delays are what put people off. ...'

This is they key to the success of everything rail related (both passenger and freight).
YM-Mundrabilla
I find the slowest and most unreliable section Is between Richmond and Southern Cross, not unusual for a train to be stranded at a red signal for more than 10 minutes waiting for a path / platform.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
'... Speed is only half the issue, reliability is the biggest one. Most can put up with a slightly longer journey if they know day in day the train will arrive/depart on time. Cancellations and delays are what put people off. ...'

This is they key to the success of everything rail related (both passenger and freight).
I find the slowest and most unreliable section Is between Richmond and Southern Cross, not unusual for a train to be stranded at a red signal for more than 10 minutes waiting for a path / platform.
Nightfire
Cross fingers, that when Dandy trains go into the tunnel, the pathway from Sth Yarra UP, is available for the Gippy pretty much exclusive.

Could even have the platform and terminate at FSS.
Why bother going to SXS and getting stuck on the viaduct, let Metro keep their own tangles.
yep I know there aren't any water or fuel services.

cheers
John
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Cross fingers, that when Dandy trains go into the tunnel, the pathway from Sth Yarra UP, is available for the Gippy pretty much exclusive.

Could even have the platform and terminate at FSS.
Why bother going to SXS and getting stuck on the viaduct, let Metro keep their own tangles.
yep I know there aren't any water or fuel services.

cheers
John
justarider
How often do these trains need fuel & water?  If crossing the viaduct for servicing could be timed to avoid peak periods....
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
You could build a servicing facility at Traralgon for the isolated fleet...but that would require effort.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Cross fingers, that when Dandy trains go into the tunnel, the pathway from Sth Yarra UP, is available for the Gippy pretty much exclusive.

Could even have the platform and terminate at FSS.
Why bother going to SXS and getting stuck on the viaduct, let Metro keep their own tangles.
yep I know there aren't any water or fuel services.

cheers
John
How often do these trains need fuel & water?  If crossing the viaduct for servicing could be timed to avoid peak periods....
Djebel
The trains from Traralgon form other services out West, from platform 15&16 at Southern Cross

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