The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
People think of batteries to store electricity and they automatically think of lithium.

There are other technologies.

Baby steps, but this Australian company is gaining traction at long last:
Redflow signs its largest global battery sale with Anaergia to supply energy storage in California – Redflow

Their expertise to date has centred around stand-alone remote installations to back up telecommunications equipment, for example:
Federal Minister’s visit unveils Redflow and Optus’ Resiliency Initiative for Mobile Networks – Redflow

Plus, their batteries are fully recyclable.
DirtyBallast
Yup, thanks for sharing

the other problem is that the anti EV brigade which spread alot of BS in the early days of EV, talking 5 years ago and some people haven't moved on. A few examples

- In 2016, Tesla's 2021 forecast used more Lithium than the world made then.
Yes true, so the assumption was its not possible, thank god for capitalism. Where there is money there is a way.

- Li is only found in Chile and other poor countries is the only place Li is mined and look at the human rights
World's largest producer of Li, Australia

- Co is only found in Congo

Not quite, it has 50% of the known reserves, Australia has 1/3 of Congo.
Nothing like a surge in Cobalt prices to spur on exploration. However Cobalt usage in EV batteries is declining quickly as most manufacturers including GM, Tesla, LG etc are working towards reduction and ultimately elimination. The actual amount pr battery has dropped by half in about 8 years and will continue to go down.

EDIT: and then there is this https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/21451670/tesla-cobalt-free-cathodes-mining-battery-nickel-ev-cost



EV Batteries will end up as landfill.
- Incorrect EV batteries are being recycled either resold to replace V's with a failed battery, being converted to domestic house batteries to be used with PV solar or recycled. While lagging about 50% of all Lithium ion batteries that were deemed suitable for recycling have been.
- Originally EV batteries were deemed consumable items and hence more waste, but as the first EV's hit 10 years of life, this was found to be false and all EV car manufacturers have both extended battery warranties significantly and closed any projects for mid life battery exchange. Most EV's used in normal domestic use are now expected to have the same battery for the life of the car (deemed >15 years). While some brag their 1990 era Falcon's are still on the road etc etc, these cars are indeed now rare and most of the fleet long retired and scrapped. The average age of Australia's cars is now ~10-11 years old. With >80% less than 20 years old. According to ABS, most cars beyond 25 years have lower mileage for their age and tend to be more specialized, classic or former high end cars not normally used in day to day driving.

The list of EV myths goes on and includes charge time phobia and range time phobias. Both realistic issues , both of which are becoming less of an issue with time and both of which would unlikely affect most drivers if you can charge your car at home.


EDIT2: The interesting thing about this statement
"Even the rednecks at my local are talking excitedly about electric cars, an absolute no no 12 months ago."

Is that over the last few years I've seen some incredibly smart people (some here) make increasingly stupid comments to justify their anti-EV stance.

"Cannot drive to Perth", ask them when the last time they drove to Perth?

"takes too long to recharge on long drives", ask them how many people drive 12h non-stop without even a basic meal and pee breaks. Yes there are those minority, but really and how often do they do these 12h drives? Then ask them how often they spend in petrol stations through out the year. So numerous hours per year lost to a petrol station doesn't matter, but 1h to recharge while having a pee and feed driving Sydney - Melbourne once every year or two is life critical! Some of these same people probably smoke too!

anyway, if the Renecks are getting it, hopefully the same commonsense will filter up the food chain sooner rather than later.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Wow. I didn’t look to see it was that bad.

Guaranteed that 0% of those championing ‘renewables’ would be putting their homes/businesses up to be among the 45% of consumers that need to go without electrons to sustain 100% ‘green’.

For ANY form of storage to work, first, you must have sufficient excess daily to put in, it is exceptionally rare that even in SA we have enough excess to worry about storage.

Just in case there is doubt, I am more than happy to have a 2GW NPP within 20km of my house, even closer though sadly it would be only sensible (operationally, not for ANY other reason) to have it further away, AND cheerfully accept my house being one of the first to accept an energy cut if the plant could not sustain above 1600MW. In return, SA presently has 2.138GW of wind, and I would expect every proponent of ‘renewables’ to accept an energy cut when wind production couldn’t meet 650MW.
Aaron
SA is a net exporter now, so times have changed. However there are extended periods of net import which means local batteries would not be sufficient long-term, hence SNOWY 2.0.

Agree on the Nuclear and FYI, UAE's first nuclear reactor & turbine achieved "commericalised operation" today, 3 more to go. Total 5400 MW. $20B and Vic could have the same, another one in NSW and another in Qld, these coupled with wind, solar and dams with gas turbine back up and Australia would be fossil fuel free by 2035 and still retain our industry.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
My bolted on ICE (petrol/diesel) supporter father sent me this this morning. GM going into EV full throttle.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/technology/gm-is-betting-its-electrified-future-on-a-revolutionary-new-battery-system/ar-BB1fmeII?ocid=msedgntp

While there are some here that continue to live in denial, the fact is EV cars are not just here to stay, but here to take over and whether we like it or not, the availability of ICE models will start to disappear from 2025. The so called heavy subsidized claims by Don are BS. Yes there are some govt programs to help build fast charging stations, but are these free to use? The states are jumping on the bandwagon of distance based charging to cover the costs of funding the roads and there are no plans nor should there be for discounted purchase costs.

Don obvious needs an education on what is a rare earth mineral and if thinks Copper is one and if its at risk of running out he's completely disconnected from reality.

Some people also need to understand the basic mining principles that include known reserves are typically based on demand. ie if you have 1Mtpa of demand and have 100Mt of known reserves, then there is usually not alot of money available to look for more.

Worldwide lithium resources identified by USGS started to increase in 2017 owing to continuing exploration. Identified resources in 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 were 41, 47, 54, 62 and 80 million tonnes, respectively
People think of batteries to store electricity and they automatically think of lithium.

There are other technologies.

Baby steps, but this Australian company is gaining traction at long last:
Redflow signs its largest global battery sale with Anaergia to supply energy storage in California – Redflow

Their expertise to date has centred around stand-alone remote installations to back up telecommunications equipment, for example:
Federal Minister’s visit unveils Redflow and Optus’ Resiliency Initiative for Mobile Networks – Redflow

Plus, their batteries are fully recyclable.
DirtyBallast
I don’t automatically think of lithium, I pick on lithium because that’s the one that Musk and others think will change the world, I admit, I also don’t automatically think of bromine based batteries either. Why? Well lithium is quite more abundant than bromine, we are going to fall so far short on lithium, bromine isn’t going to get us (in real terms) any closer.

As for RedFlow/Anaergia, please, I have read about that before, 2MWh, really? You know how much that isn’t right?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I used to be an avid visitor to production/consumption websites such as NEMwatch and electricitymap.org, but less so nowadays.

Consequently what I hadn't noticed over the past year or so was the decline in wholesale electricity prices. Sure, I've read reports that have quoted decreasing prices, but have not seen or searched for a graphical representation over time of the overall picture, and have not been interested enough to build my own.

The headline of the following article pricked my interest today and I was pleasantly surprised while reading it to see the 5 year trend of wholesale electricity prices in South Australia:
Electricity prices are falling. So why are Canberrans' household power bills about to rise? - ABC News


Makes a mockery of claims by some that renewables are not worth the bother.
The main problem is that they produce electricity at times that the grid often can't use it - and then when the grid really needs it we have to either fire up our gas or diesel generators (probably the worst option of all in terms of Co2) or import coal-fired electricity from Victoria. Recently SA Power Networks has started dumping solar feed-in from the grid at times that it can't be used - much to the chagrin of people who paid big money to participate in that middle class welfare.

The reality is that on a nice sunny day, not too hot (as we have in SA today) there's plenty of renewable energy being generated but the problem is that its the morning and evening peaks when it's really required - generally at times when the sun has gone to bed for the day. So rooftop solar is making power that simply isn't needed - and then when it is actually needed it can't meet the task.

During a small 'wind drought' that we had earlier this year (a surprisingly frequent occurrence) the wholesale price peaked at $14,000 mw/h and we were in danger of having yet another state-wide blackout because Torrens Island gas peaking plant was having problems at the time and couldn't meet demand.

It's the extremely unreliable nature of renewables at the core of their problem and there's simply no economic solution for storing that energy on the horizon.
Yes, burning filthy expensive gas or oil is sometimes necessary to generate electricity in South Australia.
DirtyBallast
What you mean to say is that sometimes it is NOT necessary to burn gas or oil in SA to generate enough electricity, because generally it is necessary to.

Today, case in point, at no point today did SA produce enough ‘renewable’ to go 100%, presently (pro observation: it’s dark), we have our battery which at this point could only contain ‘brown’ electrons producing 2.8%, wind 6.9%, and gas 54.1% the remaining being imported from most likely brown sources in the east. Something like 979MW short of demand, our ‘Ooooh! That’s a biggun!’ battery could supply that for about 6 minutes… That RedFlow/Anaergia battery you linked to … that’s going to last about 7 seconds, fully charged to fully discharged - IF it’s even safe for it to do that - which actually goes for the batteries in both cases…

What battery technology do you know of that literally makes excess electrons from nothing? Because right now, to balance today’s consumption it’s literally free energy that we are needing if we want to be totally ‘renewable’.

Rather like Don’s more dams, your more batteries only work if we have an ability to fill them, and whilst we in SA are a ‘net exporter’ that is certainly not to be considered as ‘SA only exports ‘renewable’ electrons’, because that is most certainly not true, at most times when SA exports we are generating at least some of that energy from ‘brown’ sources.

SA did not generate enough from wind and solar yesterday or today to cover requirements on either day, we probably won’t tomorrow either (which is now technically ‘today’), because although people might like to say ‘it’s always windy somewhere’ as though that’s not just plainly untrue - as has been in the last couple of days. It’s a completely irrelevant statement, that ‘it’s always windy somewhere’ in terms of reliable energy production requires that we have wind turbines quite literally ‘everywhere’ because if that ‘somewhere’ is where you don’t have a turbine, it’s as good as windy ‘nowhere’.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.

As for RedFlow/Anaergia, please, I have read about that before, 2MWh, really? You know how much that isn’t right?
Aaron
I did say baby steps!

Do you actually expect a company still in semi-R&D phase to build a storage facility hundreds of times larger?
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
I used to be an avid visitor to production/consumption websites such as NEMwatch and electricitymap.org, but less so nowadays.

Consequently what I hadn't noticed over the past year or so was the decline in wholesale electricity prices. Sure, I've read reports that have quoted decreasing prices, but have not seen or searched for a graphical representation over time of the overall picture, and have not been interested enough to build my own.

The headline of the following article pricked my interest today and I was pleasantly surprised while reading it to see the 5 year trend of wholesale electricity prices in South Australia:
Electricity prices are falling. So why are Canberrans' household power bills about to rise? - ABC News


Makes a mockery of claims by some that renewables are not worth the bother.
The main problem is that they produce electricity at times that the grid often can't use it - and then when the grid really needs it we have to either fire up our gas or diesel generators (probably the worst option of all in terms of Co2) or import coal-fired electricity from Victoria. Recently SA Power Networks has started dumping solar feed-in from the grid at times that it can't be used - much to the chagrin of people who paid big money to participate in that middle class welfare.

The reality is that on a nice sunny day, not too hot (as we have in SA today) there's plenty of renewable energy being generated but the problem is that its the morning and evening peaks when it's really required - generally at times when the sun has gone to bed for the day. So rooftop solar is making power that simply isn't needed - and then when it is actually needed it can't meet the task.

During a small 'wind drought' that we had earlier this year (a surprisingly frequent occurrence) the wholesale price peaked at $14,000 mw/h and we were in danger of having yet another state-wide blackout because Torrens Island gas peaking plant was having problems at the time and couldn't meet demand.

It's the extremely unreliable nature of renewables at the core of their problem and there's simply no economic solution for storing that energy on the horizon.
Yes, burning filthy expensive gas or oil is sometimes necessary to generate electricity in South Australia.
What you mean to say is that sometimes it is NOT necessary to burn gas or oil in SA to generate enough electricity, because generally it is necessary to.

Today, case in point, at no point today did SA produce enough ‘renewable’ to go 100%, presently (pro observation: it’s dark), we have our battery which at this point could only contain ‘brown’ electrons producing 2.8%, wind 6.9%, and gas 54.1% the remaining being imported from most likely brown sources in the east. Something like 979MW short of demand, our ‘Ooooh! That’s a biggun!’ battery could supply that for about 6 minutes… That RedFlow/Anaergia battery you linked to … that’s going to last about 7 seconds, fully charged to fully discharged - IF it’s even safe for it to do that - which actually goes for the batteries in both cases…

What battery technology do you know of that literally makes excess electrons from nothing? Because right now, to balance today’s consumption it’s literally free energy that we are needing if we want to be totally ‘renewable’.

Rather like Don’s more dams, your more batteries only work if we have an ability to fill them, and whilst we in SA are a ‘net exporter’ that is certainly not to be considered as ‘SA only exports ‘renewable’ electrons’, because that is most certainly not true, at most times when SA exports we are generating at least some of that energy from ‘brown’ sources.

SA did not generate enough from wind and solar yesterday or today to cover requirements on either day, we probably won’t tomorrow either (which is now technically ‘today’), because although people might like to say ‘it’s always windy somewhere’ as though that’s not just plainly untrue - as has been in the last couple of days. It’s a completely irrelevant statement, that ‘it’s always windy somewhere’ in terms of reliable energy production requires that we have wind turbines quite literally ‘everywhere’ because if that ‘somewhere’ is where you don’t have a turbine, it’s as good as windy ‘nowhere’.
Aaron
Yet the wholesale price of electricity is falling, falling, falling.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
When I clicked on this thread this morning, at the bottom of the page was an add for Tesla power wall or some such. So I clicked on it and had a read and this bit really stuck out



What makes this solar battery so significant? Tesla Powerwall 2 has an incredible 13.5kWh of battery storage, double that of its predecessor, in a smaller unit!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA

As for RedFlow/Anaergia, please, I have read about that before, 2MWh, really? You know how much that isn’t right?I did say baby steps!

Do you actually expect a company still in semi-R&D phase to build a storage facility hundreds of times larger?
DirtyBallast
You did, but 2MWh isn’t even crawling yet.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Yes, burning filthy expensive gas or oil is sometimes necessary to generate electricity in South Australia. Despite that, trended over time the wholesale price of electricity is falling. It is typically disingenuous of you to suggest that a snapshot of a spike in prices (which probably only lasted five minutes) can be extrapolated to deter people away from accepting renewables as a viable source of electricity generation. As you admit, Torrens Island gas peaking plant couldn't respond when required. Good old reliable fossil fuels, eh? Impossible to predict when it can or cannot produce.

The wholesale price of electricity is falling. The ratio of renewables is increasing. Coincidence?

The wholesale price of electricity is falling.
DirtyBallast
Torrens Island was unable to go to 100% of its capacity at that time due to a small fire. The HV line to VIC was running at less than half capacity due to maintenance. As a result we were very vulnerable to a state-wide blackout here in SA because of our over-reliance on renewables - yet again.

"Spikes" in prices can last all week if there's a 'wind drought' or in the winter when we have overcast weather causing the panels to not work. Great isn't it - when the sun doesn't shine or the wind doesn't blow we have to import brown-coal electrons from VIC - but according to people like you that's not an issue at all, right? Because fossil fuels - which constitute 75%-80% of our electricity generation here in Australia - they're always available to rescue consumers from the vague nature of renewables. So it's all good while we keep burning coal.

We have the very highest penetration of 'renewable' energy here in South Australia and yet we also have the highest standard base rates for electricity (36 cents kw/h verses 20.5 cents in Queensland). Any connection there do you think?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
SA is a net exporter now, so times have changed. However there are extended periods of net import which means local batteries would not be sufficient long-term, hence SNOWY 2.0.
RTT_Rules
That simply isn't true. If it were true then we wouldn't require the spending of three billion dollars on a new HV line to NSW to ensure that we don't have blackouts like the one in 2016.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Copied and pasted from the 'closed' Aussie politics thread:

Obviously. However, you are overlooking the equally obvious conclusion. That massive rainfall was an oddity, and completely different from the normal pattern. We are talking about long term infrastructure, and you cannot plan that by relying on one freak year to fill dams. Planning has to be done based upon normal climatic conditions. In other words, your comment is irrelevant. It is also irrelevant to Victoria which was where you had all these beaut sites for dams which you couldn't demonstrate when asked.
Valvegear
That's the nature of the weather in Australia. We have large rainfall events that fill dams - again you're saying that there's no need to capture those rainfall events because we have desal now. And I showed you the VIC government's own report clearly demonstrating a dearth of places that dams could be built and still you're dishonestly claiming that I haven't provided any evidence of where reservoirs could be constructed.
One of your more absurd remarks. You have ignored all relevant evidence, failed to demonstrate your claims, and resorted to your customary politics-based abuse. Irrelevance and mind-reading are no substitute for logic. I used to think that you were eccentric; now I'm convinced that you are irrational and in need of professional help, as other people have previously said. Whilst you continue to ignore the precepts of sensible debate, I'm not interested. I like dealing with clear-headed, thoughtful people of whom there are many on Railpage. You are not one of them. Regardless of whatever answer you give this time, I will ignore it. You are not debating; you are behaving like a spoilt child screaming, "It is; it is; it is!" ad nauseam despite irrefutable proof that it isn't.
Valvegear
This is just flat out slander. How would you feel if I called you a stupid, demented old man dribbling into your nappies? You wouldn't like it would you.

Its apparent that I'm considered 'fair game' on this board while I'm not allowed to say anything whatsoever about any other poster here or I get reported. So from now on I'm responding in kind - got it?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
When I clicked on this thread this morning, at the bottom of the page was an add for Tesla power wall or some such. So I clicked on it and had a read and this bit really stuck out



What makes this solar battery so significant? Tesla Powerwall 2 has an incredible 13.5kWh of battery storage, double that of its predecessor, in a smaller unit!
wobert
Is that the same Tesla Powerwall that was bursting into flames and burning houses down in Canberra etc? They can only be sited in certain spots and not inside a dwelling any longer because of that risk.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
When I clicked on this thread this morning, at the bottom of the page was an add for Tesla power wall or some such. So I clicked on it and had a read and this bit really stuck out



What makes this solar battery so significant? Tesla Powerwall 2 has an incredible 13.5kWh of battery storage, double that of its predecessor, in a smaller unit!
wobert
Powerwall 2 is actually quite old technology now, Powerwall 3 has been "coming" for a bit, however Tesla is focused on supplying batteries to its cars and the home battery storage part of the business has been left to wallow for a bit. There are more modern likely better alternatives.

My Bro in law put 6.6kW system on his roof 3 years back (location is SEQ), 2.5 kW faces the morning sunrise, rest faces west. I went through his annual data and there was about 10 days when he's a net importer. Remember SEQ has hot humid cloudy summers. AC in summer, fire in winter. If he had a Powerwall 2, the days he would have been a net importer reduced to about 4 and if he had 2 units he still had 2 or 3 days importing as these were conservative days with large cloud . It was actually cheaper/more practical to have one power wall and a back up genset or maybe a wind turbine (he's on 2ac). At the time he was interested in a battery, but his feed in tariff was pretty good. Now the story is likely very different as feed in tariffs are already going down and I said back in 2017-18, be prepared for zero within 5 years. He wasn't convinced, but here we are and while not zero its coming.

As you are in Vic, summers sunny days are longer (up to 15h) and less cloud so AC would be no issue. However Melbourne's gloomy winter days will be your down fall. This is where again I think a wind turbine would help or you use gas heating and hot water heating and a 6.6 kW PV solar with battery would probably be ok.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

As for RedFlow/Anaergia, please, I have read about that before, 2MWh, really? You know how much that isn’t right?I did say baby steps!

Do you actually expect a company still in semi-R&D phase to build a storage facility hundreds of times larger?You did, but 2MWh isn’t even crawling yet.
Aaron
The first gas turbines were smaller than this and less than double digit efficiency, got to start somewhere.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
SA is a net exporter now, so times have changed. However there are extended periods of net import which means local batteries would not be sufficient long-term, hence SNOWY 2.0.
That simply isn't true. If it were true then we wouldn't require the spending of three billion dollars on a new HV line to NSW to ensure that we don't have blackouts like the one in 2016.
don_dunstan
Its true, remember I said NET Exporter.

2020  1169 GWh Export, 969 GWh import.
2019 was over 1000 GWh delta, however some of SA's gas generation was retired at the end of 2019-20 summer.  

The reason for the HV requirement is as you have stated is that the RE supply from SA is not consistent, hence SA needs to tap into a larger grid and large SNOWY and SNOWY 2.0 scheme to enable its RE generational output to increase and not have to replace its gas generation equipment at end of life.

Its worth noting that there is right now under construction a similar HV line from the Snowy into Qld for similar reasons as SEQ Qld has limited pumped hydro/hydro capacity and the first round of coal power stations come up for retirement within 8 years, but even with this factored in Qld still has plenty of capacity to feed into the SEQ grid to replace the expected to close Liddel and others.

While I support economical RE, what most people don't know is that a portion of the closed coal power stations in NSW, Vic and SA has actually been replaced by increased output from Qld coal power stations with 2018 the highest output ever and 2020 equivalent to 2007, basically dropping by ~7% YOY since 2018.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
When I clicked on this thread this morning, at the bottom of the page was an add for Tesla power wall or some such. So I clicked on it and had a read and this bit really stuck out



What makes this solar battery so significant? Tesla Powerwall 2 has an incredible 13.5kWh of battery storage, double that of its predecessor, in a smaller unit!
Is that the same Tesla Powerwall that was bursting into flames and burning houses down in Canberra etc? They can only be sited in certain spots and not inside a dwelling any longer because of that risk.
don_dunstan
That was LG models.

I have no issue wit batteries, but I wouldn't put one inside my house and I think you're not supposed to, they should be mounted to an external wall of the house but personally I'd put it on a structure not connected to the house and they recommend a fire sprinkler system as well.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Torrens Island was unable to go to 100% of its capacity at that time due to a small fire. The HV line to VIC was running at less than half capacity due to maintenance. As a result we were very vulnerable to a state-wide blackout here in SA because of our over-reliance on renewables - yet again.

"Spikes" in prices can last all week if there's a 'wind drought' or in the winter when we have overcast weather causing the panels to not work. Great isn't it - when the sun doesn't shine or the wind doesn't blow we have to import brown-coal electrons from VIC - but according to people like you that's not an issue at all, right? Because fossil fuels - which constitute 75%-80% of our electricity generation here in Australia - they're always available to rescue consumers from the vague nature of renewables. So it's all good while we keep burning coal.

We have the very highest penetration of 'renewable' energy here in South Australia and yet we also have the highest standard base rates for electricity (36 cents kw/h verses 20.5 cents in Queensland). Any connection there do you think?
don_dunstan
Fossil fuels make up 74% of 2020 NEM supply and dropping by about 5% YOY since 2018. (we have been down this path before).

Reliance on one HV line is a pathway to failure, even when SA had the coal power station the same issues applied as that power station is remote from the main source of demand.

SA has always had the highest retail power prices long before the first wind turbine was installed.

https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/Electricity/NEM/Planning_and_Forecasting/Demand-Forecasts/NEFR/2016/Retail-electricity-price-history-and-projections.pdf

1999/2000 spot whole prices in SA were nearly double that of today.

https://www.aer.gov.au/system/files/State%20of%20the%20energy%20market%202010%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%80%9Dcomplete%20report.pdf

While actual unit price is not the end of the equation as there are other factors such as connection fees, this website shows the difference between  SA and Qld/NSW/Vic at around $1/d higher in SA overall. Considering the significantly lower cost of living in SA, not too bad an off-set.

https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.


The wholesale price of electricity is falling.

We have the very highest penetration of 'renewable' energy here in South Australia and yet we also have the highest standard base rates for electricity (36 cents kw/h verses 20.5 cents in Queensland). Any connection there do you think?
don_dunstan
None whatsoever.

I made an observation the other day that wholesale prices are trending down in South Australia, and you're complaining about being price gouged by your retailer. The chart in the article I referenced shows that wholesale electricity prices in South Australia are now less than what they were when Northern was still in operation. What was the retail price prior to May 2016?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Fossil fuels make up 74% of 2020 NEM supply and dropping by about 5% YOY since 2018. (we have been down this path before).
RTT_Rules
A typical energy scenario in this country suggests the replacement of fossil fuels in the grid will never occur because we'd have to have to be paying a fortune for 'on-demand' to replace the loss of coal - and that will almost certainly be relatively expensive gas generation.

Right now (8/4/2021 18:00 AEST) renewables in the national grid are delivering 9% of the total task - wind is delivering 9% and solar less than one percent. Coal/gas is delivering 77%. Imagine if that coal and gas component wasn't there and what the consequences would be on the supply to the grid? Where would the 17 g/wh or so of electricity that the NEM needs right now come from? Certainly not solar or wind - they're have another one of their 'off-times' nationally and can't even break ten percent of our needs despite 20 years and hundreds of billions of both public and private money ploughed into them.

SA was possibly exporting wind-power this morning but now with the peak time coming on early evening we're importing around 250 m/wh of dirty brown coal electrons from VIC as we do nearly every day while the gas 'peaking' plants are providing 1,050 m/h which is most of our need right now. As a South Australian grid-user I have to pay to keep that huge amount of stand-by capacity on tap because of the extremely unreliable nature of the green energy experiment here.

I had to laugh when I saw on the news earlier the Victorian government's ill-thought out idea to ban the sale of internal combustion cars by 2030 - they actually used the phrase 'zero emissions'. It's a fallacy - electric cars in Melbourne are almost entirely charged by Latrobe Valley dirty brown coal - at this moment providing 66% of Victoria's energy needs. How will they charge their electric cars when the coal plants are progressively switched off - moon power? Witchcraft?
Reliance on one HV line is a pathway to failure, even when SA had the coal power station the same issues applied as that power station is remote from the main source of demand.
RTT_Rules
If we don't have that HV line then reliability will get even worse than it is now - and anyway you were skyting earlier about South Australia being a net-exporter of wind energy. That wouldn't be possible without the construction of the new heavy duty HV line to NSW - the existing line to Victoria is simply too small to be of any practical use in that regard. So either/or.

There's a lot of contradictions in the things that you write and you really need to think out cause/consequence more before coming to your position.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud


The wholesale price of electricity is falling.

We have the very highest penetration of 'renewable' energy here in South Australia and yet we also have the highest standard base rates for electricity (36 cents kw/h verses 20.5 cents in Queensland). Any connection there do you think?None whatsoever.

I made an observation the other day that wholesale prices are trending down in South Australia, and you're complaining about being price gouged by your retailer. The chart in the article I referenced shows that wholesale electricity prices in South Australia are now less than what they were when Northern was still in operation. What was the retail price prior to May 2016?
DirtyBallast
Retail prices are not falling. They're not falling because I also have to pay for the times at which renewable energy brings us close to catastrophic failure in which case we get gouged (ie $14,000 per m/wh). I have to pay to keep those turbines on 24/7 stand-by for when the wind stops blowing (as it did this afternoon).

The French owners of Torrens Island gas peaking plant were deliberately taking capacity off line a few years ago because they figured out they could charge more for their power if they produced less of it. The SA government sat on their hands and said 'that's their prerogative'.

Green energy is wonderful, isn't it.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out


The wholesale price of electricity is falling.

We have the very highest penetration of 'renewable' energy here in South Australia and yet we also have the highest standard base rates for electricity (36 cents kw/h verses 20.5 cents in Queensland). Any connection there do you think?None whatsoever.

I made an observation the other day that wholesale prices are trending down in South Australia, and you're complaining about being price gouged by your retailer. The chart in the article I referenced shows that wholesale electricity prices in South Australia are now less than what they were when Northern was still in operation. What was the retail price prior to May 2016?Retail prices are not falling. They're not falling because I also have to pay for the times at which renewable energy brings us close to catastrophic failure in which case we get gouged (ie $14,000 per m/wh).
don_dunstan
No, you get gouged because the retailers get a thinly veiled excuse to increase costs because they decided too. It really sstarted to happen around the carbon tax, where the wholesale price Hazelwood was giving into the grid was the same but the retailers jacked it through the roof "because it costs Hazelwood more and they are (not) charging more."
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Fossil fuels make up 74% of 2020 NEM supply and dropping by about 5% YOY since 2018. (we have been down this path before).
A typical energy scenario in this country suggests the replacement of fossil fuels in the grid will never occur because we'd have to have to be paying a fortune for 'on-demand' to replace the loss of coal - and that will almost certainly be relatively expensive gas generation.

Right now (8/4/2021 18:00 AEST) renewables in the national grid are delivering 9% of the total task - wind is delivering 9% and solar less than one percent. Coal/gas is delivering 77%. Imagine if that coal and gas component wasn't there and what the consequences would be on the supply to the grid? Where would the 17 g/wh or so of electricity that the NEM needs right now come from? Certainly not solar or wind - they're have another one of their 'off-times' nationally and can't even break ten percent of our needs despite 20 years and hundreds of billions of both public and private money ploughed into them.

SA was possibly exporting wind-power this morning but now with the peak time coming on early evening we're importing around 250 m/wh of dirty brown coal electrons from VIC as we do nearly every day while the gas 'peaking' plants are providing 1,050 m/h which is most of our need right now. As a South Australian grid-user I have to pay to keep that huge amount of stand-by capacity on tap because of the extremely unreliable nature of the green energy experiment here.

I had to laugh when I saw on the news earlier the Victorian government's ill-thought out idea to ban the sale of internal combustion cars by 2030 - they actually used the phrase 'zero emissions'. It's a fallacy - electric cars in Melbourne are almost entirely charged by Latrobe Valley dirty brown coal - at this moment providing 66% of Victoria's energy needs. How will they charge their electric cars when the coal plants are progressively switched off - moon power? Witchcraft?
Reliance on one HV line is a pathway to failure, even when SA had the coal power station the same issues applied as that power station is remote from the main source of demand.
If we don't have that HV line then reliability will get even worse than it is now - and anyway you were skyting earlier about South Australia being a net-exporter of wind energy. That wouldn't be possible without the construction of the new heavy duty HV line to NSW - the existing line to Victoria is simply too small to be of any practical use in that regard. So either/or.

There's a lot of contradictions in the things that you write and you really need to think out cause/consequence more before coming to your position.
don_dunstan

- Sth Aus is a net exporter with the current HV line, has been for at least 2 years, this is fact data available from OPENNEM and AEMO websites and I don't see why it deserves ongoing discussion saying otherwise or contradiction comments.

- To close the remaining SA gas generation (at end of life) needs an 1000 MW line into NSW connected to the Snowy Hydro, further increase in solar and wind and significant increase in battery storage which will happen over the next 5 years as home storage starts to takes off.

- The price of power and available has been so cheap for  around 6mths that existing pumped hydro is rarely being used.

- No one is saying that 17 GW of coal/gas will be closed now as you are correct to do so leaves us with few options, something the far left greenies need to wake up to the fact on. However  the transition will occur over the next 25 years using technology currently not viable or available today. 12 years ago RE made up less than 8% of the grid and it was mostly hydro, its now 26% of which 18% is PV and wind.

- Snowy 2.0, 1000 MW HV line into SA, 2nd Bass Link, Large scale battery storage is also under construction in NSW and I think which will provide peaking capacity will enable the closure of Liddel, Vales Point, Yalluorn and I think Callide B in Qld, beyond this, who knows, thats a problem for 10 years away.

- Will peaking gas disappear before 2040? I doubt it. Its reasonably clean, reliable and readily available. But the important part is coal will be supplying around 10 GW well into the 2030's.

- EV, yes in Vic now, today Vic is the only state where an EV produces more CO2 than petrol. Closure of Yallourn changes this equation. So yes Victoria's proposal to ban new ICE sales by 2030 is likely to be quite practical considering the range of models available by then, expected range, charging options and energy source etc etc.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Retail prices are not falling. They're not falling because I also have to pay for the times at which renewable energy brings us close to catastrophic failure in which case we get gouged (ie $14,000 per m/wh). I have to pay to keep those turbines on 24/7 stand-by for when the wind stops blowing (as it did this afternoon).

The French owners of Torrens Island gas peaking plant were deliberately taking capacity off line a few years ago because they figured out they could charge more for their power if they produced less of it. The SA government sat on their hands and said 'that's their prerogative'.

Green energy is wonderful, isn't it.
don_dunstan
The $13,000 MW/h peaking price cap was an is a complete rip off, even the Texan's are not that high.

There is no serious justification to have the cap exceed $5000/MWh.

Turbines are always on standby regardless of EV or not, its a requirement by AEMO. Not having them on standby is why  we have issues in the past and why whole sale prices are now much lower than a few years back. Non of this is related to Green Energy, its because we have a open market, which I personally believe is too small to work effectively and doesn't work well in most parts of the world without so much regulation why bother. Its also prohibitive preventing long-term pay back projects as its impossible to get finance.

Personally I think it should go to bidding 24/7/365/25 supply agreements. The requirement can be either guaranteed baseload supply and peaking supply. RE bidders are not penalised, but to bid baseload they need to guarantee supply, so they work with others to ensure how this is achieved, gas, hydro etc. Its a model frequently used in other countries and removes the pub pi$$ing on which is cheaper.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.


The wholesale price of electricity is falling.

We have the very highest penetration of 'renewable' energy here in South Australia and yet we also have the highest standard base rates for electricity (36 cents kw/h verses 20.5 cents in Queensland). Any connection there do you think?None whatsoever.

I made an observation the other day that wholesale prices are trending down in South Australia, and you're complaining about being price gouged by your retailer. The chart in the article I referenced shows that wholesale electricity prices in South Australia are now less than what they were when Northern was still in operation. What was the retail price prior to May 2016?Retail prices are not falling. They're not falling because I also have to pay for the times at which renewable energy brings us close to catastrophic failure in which case we get gouged (ie $14,000 per m/wh). I have to pay to keep those turbines on 24/7 stand-by for when the wind stops blowing (as it did this afternoon).

The French owners of Torrens Island gas peaking plant were deliberately taking capacity off line a few years ago because they figured out they could charge more for their power if they produced less of it. The SA government sat on their hands and said 'that's their prerogative'.

Green energy is wonderful, isn't it.
don_dunstan
So, what was the retail price in South Australia prior to Northern closing?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
- Sth Aus is a net exporter with the current HV line, has been for at least 2 years, this is fact data available from OPENNEM and AEMO websites and I don't see why it deserves ongoing discussion saying otherwise or contradiction comments.

- To close the remaining SA gas generation (at end of life) needs an 1000 MW line into NSW connected to the Snowy Hydro, further increase in solar and wind and significant increase in battery storage which will happen over the next 5 years as home storage starts to takes off.

- The price of power and available has been so cheap for  around 6mths that existing pumped hydro is rarely being used.
RTT_Rules
For us to be able to actually make serious money from the surplus that is provided by wind-power we have to be able to pump it into another state AND be able to do it at times that they're not experiencing their own surge of wind energy rendering the extra power redundant.

That's where Steve Marshall's new HV line to NSW kinda makes some sense because its more likely that NSW will have a different weather pattern at the time to us. And we've been spending big money here in SA subsidising home solar batteries and it still hasn't made any meaningful ingress into providing our peak evening loads.

Again, the retail price of power is determined by all sorts of contingencies not the least of which 'network improvements' or building lines to network unreliable power sources together is a huge part of the typical bill here in SA.

We need one big, serious nuclear reactor, molten salt is the safest technology of all and a hundred percent safe shown all over the world. We can pump serious baseload to the eastern seaboard through our interstate HV lines and keep the lights on in VIC and NSW when their failing power networks are trying to move to solar.
- No one is saying that 17 GW of coal/gas will be closed now as you are correct to do so leaves us with few options, something the far left greenies need to wake up to the fact on.
RTT_Rules
EVERYONE is saying that on the left in this country. Everyone from the batsh*t crazy Greens in the Senate to loony independents like Zali Steggle and (more dangerously) the Victorian government and New South Wales governments too. Everyone is saying coal will go and it will go soon.
However the transition will occur over the next 25 years using technology currently not viable or available today. 12 years ago RE made up less than 8% of the grid and it was mostly hydro, its now 26% of which 18% is PV and wind. - Snowy 2.0, 1000 MW HV line into SA, 2nd Bass Link, Large scale battery storage is also under construction in NSW and I think which will provide peaking capacity will enable the closure of Liddel, Vales Point, Yalluorn and I think Callide B in Qld, beyond this, who knows, thats a problem for 10 years away.
RTT_Rules
Nup, you have no evidence whatsoever that the infrastructure will be there to prevent blackouts in peak times when there's common events like 'wind droughts' or prolonged overcast weather.

We had a wind drought right here in SA today after a promising start of the turbines chugging away all morning... next thing we were becalmed by a bit more high pressure and we had to suck in those dirty brown electrons AND fire up our 'peaking' gas (to more than two thirds of our needs). Lights out everyone, can't have any dirty brown coal in our consumption mix!

Fossil fuels ain't going anywhere.

You're as crazy as the people you deride as crazy if you think they are.

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