V/Line’s first all-female driver trainee group hits the network

 

News article: V/Line’s first all-female driver trainee group hits the network

Eight female trainees for V/Line were recruited from non-rail backgrounds and are said to bring with them a diverse range of experiences.

  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
No.

The only reason you keep banging on about this issue is because the trainees are women with diverse backgrounds and you have a problem with it. Contrary to your interpretation, the article does not state what the selection criteria actually was, nor does it state that men were deliberately excluded. What it does suggest is that diverse backgrounds are welcome, probably for the purpose of encouraging others.

Not too many years ago I applied for a job at the soon to close Yallourn PS. I have a trade background but no production experience apart from troubleshooting. I asked the HR manager if my role to date was an asset or hindrance and he replied by saying that their best recruit in years was a former deep sea diver! Far more important than previous job description was a demonstrated ability to be receptive to training and to adhere to routine and procedure. What better candidate in the trainee group that we are talking about, than an army major comfortable with a strict compliance to protocol and procedure, with leadership qualities to boot! By the way I declined the job at Yallourn, which turned out to be a smart decision.

If the trainee group consisted wholly of white Christian men with diverse backgrounds, is that discriminatory?

If the trainee group consisted wholly of brown Muslim men with diverse backgrounds, is that discriminatory?

If the trainee group consisted wholly of brown Muslim men with vast rail experience, is that discriminatory?

Training - you say that "Afterall the less V-Line have to teach someone," etc. This is typical short term-ism, crapping in your own nest, shirking your responsibility, etc. Employers cannot simply expect to continually open the cupboard door and find experienced workers just waiting for a job. Someone actually has to train people up. V-Line seem to be doing it now, and you don't like the way they're doing it! The alternative is mass recruitment from overseas where those recruits would be happy to work for peanuts.

The article you linked regarding women in boardrooms etc. is four years old and from some backward country on the other side of the world where inequality rules. Try harder please.

A 1% difference in my superannuation balance compounding over 40 years buys me a new Porsche Cayenne rather than a very second hand Toyota Rav4, for example.

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  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
It's based on experience.
YM-Mundrabilla
My 2 bobs worth. In latish 1984 I ended up in the Austin Hospital, Heidelberg in fairly shabby condition after a bit of a bingle off the motor bike, after completing about 5ish months rehab, headed home to Cavendish riding a wheeled contraption in a rough sort of fashion. A character building experience, if nothing else !  

In late 2016 I entered rehab at Hamstead Spinal Rehab here in Adelaide after havin' me shoulder rebuilt...another 5 month voyage of character building.

So based on experience I felt Extremely Discriminated....Shocked....Razz   by some of the rules that were emplaced to Not Discriminate the patients.

Rules that were sheltering them from a world some of them would re-enter in different form to which they previously knew.

There's only 1 real world outside in which everyone has to deal with.

BigShunter.
  Stafford Station Master

Location: Kalgoorlie
No.

The only reason you keep banging on about this issue is because the trainees are women with diverse backgrounds and you have a problem with it. Contrary to your interpretation, the article does not state what the selection criteria actually was, nor does it state that men were deliberately excluded. What it does suggest is that diverse backgrounds are welcome, probably for the purpose of encouraging others.
DirtyBallast

I'm not sure how many times I'll have to repeat myself before you understand me, apparently at least once more.
I have no problem with 'women from diverse backgrounds' being trainees, as you put it, I have a problem with anyone being selected over anyone else on the basis of anything other than merit.
These women were selected and the article was written because they were women, because V/Line wants to virtue signal how progressive and forward thinking they are. If the trainees were a mix of males and females from diverse backgrounds, there would be no article because that isn't news, and there would be no PR to be gained from it.

To repeat: What I want is what has existed up to this point, nobody to receive special treatment based on race or gender.

Yes, the women in those trustee positions might have got there on merit (whatever that is) but if I had any say in it I'd be doing my darndest to get more in.
Dirtyballast

You're the one who wants to force the issue, but why? If women choose to be nurses or teachers rather than train drivers, why do you want to push them towards a job that most women obviously have no interest in?

If the trainee group consisted wholly of white Christian men with diverse backgrounds, is that discriminatory?

If the trainee group consisted wholly of brown Muslim men with diverse backgrounds, is that discriminatory?

If the trainee group consisted wholly of brown Muslim men with vast rail experience, is that discriminatory?
Dirtyballast

The answer to all three is the same. If the trainees selected were based on merit, their coincidental similarities are irrelevant.

Training - you say that "Afterall the less V-Line have to teach someone," etc. This is typical short term-ism, crapping in your own nest, shirking your responsibility, etc. Employers cannot simply expect to continually open the cupboard door and find experienced workers just waiting for a job. Someone actually has to train people up. V-Line seem to be doing it now, and you don't like the way they're doing it!
Dirtyballast

I guess a couple of rail companies in my neck of the woods are guilty of 'typical short term-ism, crapping in their own nest, shirking their responsibilities, etc' then.

Here's a couple of ads. Pacific National Aurizon Qube Watco

Notice that every single one of them want applicants with Cert IV in Train Driving and recent driving experience.
You can frame that way of thinking however you choose, but here in the real world, it's called 'common sense'.

The article you linked regarding women in boardrooms etc. is four years old and from some backward country on the other side of the world where inequality rules. Try harder please.
Dirtyballast

So you're prepared to ignore evidence clearly shown because you don't like where it came from or isn't fresh off the presses five minutes ago, thankyou for proving that you're arguing as an idealogue rather than trying to come to a rational consensus.

A 1% difference in my superannuation balance compounding over 40 years buys me a new Porsche Cayenne rather than a very second hand Toyota Rav4, for example.
Dirtyballast

Sure, and if it was proven that women had anything to do with that, women-led superannuation funds would be overflowing with people wanting to move their super there. They don't, so they're not.
  420renegade Station Staff

Diversity_05-1.pdf (ara.net.au)

from Women in rail - Australasian Railway Association (ara.net.au)

You certainly have no real experience of the current levels of women in rail focused workforce.
and your argument style certainly comes across as mysoginist.

Many control centers are "full of old white men" and when i started in control there was 1 female out of 51 employees and all white.

all the old timers forget it was a mates club and only mates and relatives got jobs and women were non existent except to clean and serve tea and sandwiches, the views held back then thankfully are disappearing with those that enjoyed the way it was.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
Stafford, are you related to don_dunstan? Laughing

I'm not here to argue, I'm here to tell you why you are wrong.

You probably don't realise, but you come across as some sad bloke saying "I've got nothing against women, but..."

If V-Line are virtue signalling, so be it. I see the issue as a good news story and you don't. Nothing will change that.

Unfortunately 3/4 of the links you provided didn't open for me. The Aurizon one did but it was clear that they weren't after a trainee. We are talking about trainees; why are you posting job links for fully qualified people? Can't you tell the difference? I bet you can't wait for McDonald's to advertise for fully qualified trainee burger flippers to stop those pesky kids from getting a start!

Comparing the articles we linked regarding women in the boardroom etc., I never said I disagreed with the content of yours, rather its validity due to its age and location. It is not as relevant to the here and now as mine was. Continue to enjoy your lower returns!
  Stafford Station Master

Location: Kalgoorlie
This will be my last reply as I'm tired of repeating myself.

You probably don't realise, but you come across as some sad bloke saying "I've got nothing against women, but..."
DirtyBallast

I realise what you want me to sound like, you want me to be saying 'Grrrr women, they should stay in the kitchen and leave driving to the MEN, it's a MANs job afterall!'

I think this will be the third or fourth time re-stating my position, but here it is again:

I do not care if a man or a woman drives the train, I care that they got their position on merit and nothing else.
I disagree with discrimination of any kind, but apparently you do not.


Unfortunately 3/4 of the links you provided didn't open for me. The Aurizon one did but it was clear that they weren't after a trainee. We are talking about trainees; why are you posting job links for fully qualified people? Can't you tell the difference? I bet you can't wait for McDonald's to advertise for fully qualified trainee burger flippers to stop those pesky kids from getting a start!
DirtyBallast

Yeah not sure why that is, modern links are harder to work with than the older ones - it doesn't matter anyway. The ads all pretty much say the same thing, looking for train driving applicants, the more experience the better.

As for McDonalds, sure, if Maccas required their applicants to have Cert IV in burger flipping they'd post ads to say that too.
They don't, so they don't.

Comparing the articles we linked regarding women in the boardroom etc., I never said I disagreed with the content of yours, rather its validity due to its age and location. It is not as relevant to the here and now as mine was. Continue to enjoy your lower returns!
DirtyBallast

Why would you question its validity? Nothing has changed so much in either four years or from the USA to here that would invalidate its contents, how about being honest and saying you don't like it because it diminishes your claim.

As for super, I manage my own, it's really not as scary as most people think.

Take care.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: Standing at the limit of an endless ocean
No probs Stafford, at the end of the day this has been nothing but a healthy discussion.

I have been trying to be more succinct as we've progressed and apparently failed but I will also end here, with a few reminders for the other readers.

You are the one who thinks that entry level traineeships need applicants with previous related experience, not me. They are traineeships for God's sake, not fully qualified positions! Merit based on previous related experience is a figment of your imagination regarding entry level traineeships. It simply doesn't matter. If it still annoys you, tell V-Line that they're doing it wrong.

One other thing sticks in my mind from your reply yesterday. The fact that you said that IF the trainees were a mix of males and females with diverse backgrounds, i.e. none of them having previous related experience, there would be no story as, presumably, this would reflect a normal intake (in my opinion). Given that, how could you you be happy with the men in that group getting a foot in the door not based on merit, the same merit that you demand from female candidates?
  GoldenGirl Locomotive Driver


I read through your article and it's nothing new to me, here is another article addressing the same issue.
The conclusion is that having women on boards causes no significant statistical difference to board performance, your own article states that - any 'benefits' listed are all less than 1%, which falls well within the range of correlation and well outside causation.
There are as yet, no studies that prove that having women on company boards makes any significant difference to the bottom line, if it did, companies would be filling their boardrooms with women as quickly as possible.
They're not, so clearly they don't believe it makes a significant difference to the bottom line either, boards that are making efforts to increase female representation on their boards are all doing it for the same reason - PR, the same reason as V/Line is doing this.


As for more males going into the fields of nursing or teaching, female dominated fields to the tune of 90% and 85% respectively if memory serves correctly, why would I care?
Again, men are not excluded from becoming nurses or teachers - and if I'm in the hospital being taken care of by a nurse, it matters not to me one iota what gender or race the nurse is, I only care that they are competent at their job.
Likewise for teachers, if a teacher will be taking care of my children, I don't care if they are male or female, only that they are competent at their job.

This is no different to what I want for my train drivers, I don't care if they are male or female, only that they are competent at their job - however if V/Line is automatically excluding 50% of their potential applicants based on gender, they may well be excluding at least some of the best potential applicants.

That is what I disagree with.
Stafford
"Again, men are not excluded from becoming nurses or teachers - and if I'm in the hospital being taken care of by a nurse, it matters not to me one iota what gender or race the nurse is, I only care that they are competent at their job."

I would prefer it if they could speak understandable English. Sadly, in large Melbourne hospitals that is often not the case.

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