The wait continues for report on Lydiard St rail gate smash

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 28 Jul 2020 10:12
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
When I questioned about the position of sanders on linkedin, someone told me to have a second look, but they are illustrated behind the leading bogie whichever end it's driven from.  Is there a different illustration?
route14
No you are correct, the sanders are positioned behind the leading bogie and in front of the trailing one.

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  route14 Chief Commissioner

This is really an odd design.
  hbedriver Assistant Commissioner

And in “possibly completely unrelated” news, a VL allegedly applied emergency brakes a kilometer prior to Macedon today, skated through at 60km/h. Wonder whether ATSB knows?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Some further commentary on the status of the gates https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/the-ballarat-railway-gate-saga

Why is the plan taking so long to be communicated?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Some further commentary on the status of the gates https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/the-ballarat-railway-gate-saga

Why is the plan taking so long to be communicated?
bevans
Ask Sir Humphrey.

There have been no incidents recorded on the ATSB website since late February during which time there have been the Bomen derailment and the level crossing collision near Griffith plus who knows what else?

For example they are still 'investigating' the Tasmanian runaway cement train that occurred in September 2018 - the best pert of three years ago. A close run potential head on near Wagga has been 'discontinued' without a confirmed cause?

'In the fullness of time', 'when the time is right', 'when the necessary procedures have been carried out' ...................
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Ask Sir Humphrey.

There have been no incidents recorded on the ATSB website since late February during which time there have been the Bomen derailment and the level crossing collision near Griffith plus who knows what else?

For example they are still 'investigating' the Tasmanian runaway cement train that occurred in September 2018 - the best pert of three years ago. A close run potential head on near Wagga has been 'discontinued' without a confirmed cause?

'In the fullness of time', 'when the time is right', 'when the necessary procedures have been carried out' ...................
YM-Mundrabill
yes, the sudden action to "Discontinue" an investigation with little or no explanation is a concern.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

There have been many investigations by ATSB that got discontinued.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
There have been many investigations by ATSB that got discontinued.
route14
They heeded Sir Humphrey: "The first rule of government is never look into anything that you don't have to. Never set up an enquiry without knowing in advance what its findings will be."
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

'In the fullness of time', 'when the time is right', 'when the necessary procedures have been carried out'
YM-Mundrabilla
"...at the appropriate juncture, when the climate is more favourable..."
  8502 Train Controller

No expert and partial understanding of rail accident protocols by why whenever anything is sent to Victrack or V/Line does it disappear into the abyss?
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

There have been many investigations by ATSB that got discontinued.
route14
Does that make it ok?
  Lachlan's Train Channel Junior Train Controller

Location: probably taking a photo of 7901V
And in “possibly completely unrelated” news, a VL allegedly applied emergency brakes a kilometer prior to Macedon today, skated through at 60km/h. Wonder whether ATSB knows?
hbedriver
Another downhill grade. Was it wet? I remember at the start of the year I was on a Vlocity to Traralgon and it was quite wet. After having a few wheelslips at Warragul, we overshot the platform at Yarragon, all 3 cars, at about 30kph. Unsure if there was a gradient but if it was dry the train would've stopped easily. After sitting there for a bit we continued on and whoever wanted to get on/off there was hung out to dry at Trafalgar.

It seems Vlos might have an issue stopping in a reasonable manner in wet weather, possibly related to the traction control system trying to prevent wheelflats?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
And in “possibly completely unrelated” news, a VL allegedly applied emergency brakes a kilometer prior to Macedon today, skated through at 60km/h. Wonder whether ATSB knows?
Another downhill grade. Was it wet? I remember at the start of the year I was on a Vlocity to Traralgon and it was quite wet. After having a few wheelslips at Warragul, we overshot the platform at Yarragon, all 3 cars, at about 30kph. Unsure if there was a gradient but if it was dry the train would've stopped easily. After sitting there for a bit we continued on and whoever wanted to get on/off there was hung out to dry at Trafalgar.

It seems Vlos might have an issue stopping in a reasonable manner in wet weather, possibly related to the traction control system trying to prevent wheelflats?
Lachlan's Train Channel
This is the sort of systemic issue that the ATSB or whoever should be investigating.
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
There have been many investigations by ATSB that got discontinued.
Does that make it ok?
theanimal
No, but the ATSB, like most Government agencies, has continued to have their budgets cut by successive Governments and can not afford to investigate things they have already investigated and know the outcome. If you want a different outcome, vote for someone willing to fund the Government agencies to do their job and hold the Government of the day and industry to account. Quote, "If you want a better Country, be a better Citizen." Jim Wright.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
There have been many investigations by ATSB that got discontinued.
Does that make it ok?
No, but the ATSB, like most Government agencies, has continued to have their budgets cut by successive Governments and can not afford to investigate things they have already investigated and know the outcome. If you want a different outcome, vote for someone willing to fund the Government agencies to do their job and hold the Government of the day and industry to account. Quote, "If you want a better Country, be a better Citizen." Jim Wright.
Jack Le Lievre
Valvegear, in his post of 29/4, has already summed up the matter in this regard:

'They heeded Sir Humphrey: "The first rule of government is never look into anything that you don't have to. Never set up an enquiry without knowing in advance what its findings will be.'

It matters not whether any shortcomings are due to ATSB resources or not the buck stops with the Minister.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

And in “possibly completely unrelated” news, a VL allegedly applied emergency brakes a kilometer prior to Macedon today, skated through at 60km/h. Wonder whether ATSB knows?
Another downhill grade. Was it wet? I remember at the start of the year I was on a Vlocity to Traralgon and it was quite wet. After having a few wheelslips at Warragul, we overshot the platform at Yarragon, all 3 cars, at about 30kph. Unsure if there was a gradient but if it was dry the train would've stopped easily. After sitting there for a bit we continued on and whoever wanted to get on/off there was hung out to dry at Trafalgar.

It seems Vlos might have an issue stopping in a reasonable manner in wet weather, possibly related to the traction control system trying to prevent wheelflats?
Lachlan's Train Channel
Yarragon at times is affected by the rows of poplar trees that are between the line and the highway.  They make the rail greasy there in autumn and the trains have trouble stopping and getting going again.   The track is pragmatically flat there (minor grades)
  Lachlan's Train Channel Junior Train Controller

Location: probably taking a photo of 7901V
And in “possibly completely unrelated” news, a VL allegedly applied emergency brakes a kilometer prior to Macedon today, skated through at 60km/h. Wonder whether ATSB knows?
Another downhill grade. Was it wet? I remember at the start of the year I was on a Vlocity to Traralgon and it was quite wet. After having a few wheelslips at Warragul, we overshot the platform at Yarragon, all 3 cars, at about 30kph. Unsure if there was a gradient but if it was dry the train would've stopped easily. After sitting there for a bit we continued on and whoever wanted to get on/off there was hung out to dry at Trafalgar.

It seems Vlos might have an issue stopping in a reasonable manner in wet weather, possibly related to the traction control system trying to prevent wheelflats?
Yarragon at times is affected by the rows of poplar trees that are between the line and the highway.  They make the rail greasy there in autumn and the trains have trouble stopping and getting going again.   The track is pragmatically flat there (minor grades)
skitz
This was in January though.
  Galron Chief Commissioner

Location: Werribee, Vic

It seems Vlos might have an issue stopping in a reasonable manner in wet weather, possibly related to the traction control system trying to prevent wheelflats?
Lachlan's Train Channel
i'll propose 2 options here, without any evidence to back up my statements

suggestion 1 is do we have another xtrap situation here, where dirty wheels in traction compromised situations are just not cutting it?

Suggestion 2, possibly more contentious, are the drivers driving to dry and not wet conditions?

Suggestion 2a Vlocities have been in service a good while now. why are we all of a sudden having traction issues? or where they always there, and a few incidents have exposed them?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Suggestion 1: move sand pipe to in front of the leading bogie.
  hbedriver Assistant Commissioner

Referring to Galron’s remarks;

I don’t understand the remark about Xtrapolis trains. These have scrubber blocks, can be savage with wheel slips and slides, but stop reliably. Maybe you’re thinking of the Siemens issues several years back.

Driver performance should always be considered. Then again, if you hit a platform at 25km/h, go out the other end at 30 with brakes fully applied, you suspect human factors not the main problem.

The Liddiard St problem, the ATSB preliminary report shows emergency brakes applied at 97km/h, Train went through a sharp crossover, negotiated a long tight curve, lots of rolling resistance, and still took a km to stop. Going uphill. Hard to blame driver fir that.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'... if you hit a platform at 25km/h, go out the other end at 30 with brakes fully applied, you suspect human factor's not the main problem. ... '.
Well put - you will not get a job as a spin doctor. Very Happy
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

There have been many investigations by ATSB that got discontinued.
Does that make it ok?
No, but the ATSB, like most Government agencies, has continued to have their budgets cut by successive Governments and can not afford to investigate things they have already investigated and know the outcome. If you want a different outcome, vote for someone willing to fund the Government agencies to do their job and hold the Government of the day and industry to account. Quote, "If you want a better Country, be a better Citizen." Jim Wright.
Valvegear, in his post of 29/4, has already summed up the matter in this regard:

'They heeded Sir Humphrey: "The first rule of government is never look into anything that you don't have to. Never set up an enquiry without knowing in advance what its findings will be.'

It matters not whether any shortcomings are due to ATSB resources or not the buck stops with the Minister.
YM-Mundrabilla
Remember that the ATSB doesn't actually operate in Victoria for anything other than aviation matters.

Rail safety investigations there are handled on the ATSB's behalf by the office of the Chief Investigator Transport Safety, part of the state government Department of Transport. This means it is part of the same department which runs V/Line and manages the Metro Trains Melbourne contract, therefore the relationship is closer to incest than independence.

So yes, the buck does stop with the Minister, and ultimately the Premier if the three ministers for the transport portfolio can't decide which of them is responsible.

The ATSB is not fully without blame in this, as they could take a stand for independence by suspending the agreement allowing the VDoT investigations to be published with an ATSB cover page.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Remember that the ATSB doesn't actually operate in Victoria for anything other than aviation matters.

Rail safety investigations there are handled on the ATSB's behalf by the office of the Chief Investigator Transport Safety, part of the state government Department of Transport. This means it is part of the same department which runs V/Line and manages the Metro Trains Melbourne contract, therefore the relationship is closer to incest than independence.

So yes, the buck does stop with the Minister, and ultimately the Premier if the three ministers for the transport portfolio can't decide which of them is responsible.

The ATSB is not fully without blame in this, as they could take a stand for independence by suspending the agreement allowing the VDoT investigations to be published with an ATSB cover page.
justapassenger
I'm sure both federal and state governments are happy with arrangement.
If the Feds wanted a truly independent ATSB they would have to fund it as such.
And, there is also the case that state politicians will rarely give up any of their fiefdom.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Interesting perspective in this article https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/lydiard-street-gates-in-ballarat-time-to-move-on
  route14 Chief Commissioner

This article first appeared on Daniel Bowen's blog.  Now there are two identical pieces of news on Railpage with different first publishers.

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