Melbourne’s next generation trams could be trackless with rubber wheels

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 02 May 2021 12:03
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Vehicles with rubber tires are not trams they are long buses.

Melbourne’s next generation trams could be trackless with rubber wheels

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  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Vehicles with rubber tires are not trams they are long buses.

Melbourne’s next generation trams could be trackless with rubber wheels
bevans
'Twill be interesting to see how expensive they are in the Australian context.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Vehicles with rubber tires are not trams they are long buses.

Melbourne’s next generation trams could be trackless with rubber wheels
bevans
Who's pushing this barrow? Not that guy from Flinders University in South Australia. Whilst the Chinese are playing around with it the only other example, in France, has been deactivated.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
What is the reason for needing to even look at this when Melbourne has a good tram network ?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
If this concept proves to work In Australia, It's likely It would be deployed on trunk bus routes that already have bus priority systems In place.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

It could be an option to start a tram network from scratch, but replacing an existing network with it has no environmental benefit.  In fact, rubber tyres consume more energy under otherwise the same circumstances due to increased resistance.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
It could be an option to start a tram network from scratch, but replacing an existing network with it has no environmental benefit.  In fact, rubber tyres consume more energy under otherwise the same circumstances due to increased resistance.
route14
The article doesn't talk of the required energy demands of these rubber tyred vehicles (unless they're much lighter than the equivalent rail going tram)
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Trolley busses.
Whoever would have thought of such a new concept?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Trolley busses.
Whoever would have thought of such a new concept?
YM-Mundrabilla
I guess the concept Is an advanced version of trolley busses, though with onboard batteries they don't need to be always connected to a double wire overhead system (I remember seeing how complex this overhead system was In Zürich, that also had a single wire tram overhead on the same Street)
the rubber tyred vehicles would also have auto steer.
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Gold Coast QLD
So they're just big bendy buses with batteries?
Atleast steel wheels on steel rails don't spread micro particles of rubber everywhere they go...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Anything to divert attention from the poor public transport that we have today.
MYKI all over again?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I guess it'll end up like the idea "Yarra Trams considering ground power".  They are basically replacing electricity with electricity.  Both have no environmental benefit.
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
On the upside, taking out the tracks gives the “tram” driver more apparent control, enabling him/her to be allocated a greater share of blame when some idiot in a car drives down the wrong side and careens into the tram (as happened in Sydney a few days ago).

You can’t suggest the tram should have got out of the way when it’s stuck in metal grooves.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
A rubber-tyred, trackless tram is a bus.
  3088D Station Master

A rubber-tyred, trackless tram is a bus.
Valvegear
Except in Brisbane, where they will be called a "Metro Vehicle".
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I believe they still have to follow "virtual tracks".  You need a much wider ROW to allow the error margin of manual steering.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

But it's wondrous, shiny and new, an up to date idea, like a monorail...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
A BG monorail in a tunnel is the answer.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
What is the reason for needing to even look at this when Melbourne has a good tram network ?
freightgate
[citation needed]

Unless of course you literally mean Melbourne, as in postcode 3000, otherwise...

* Impossibly slow speeds
* Excessive timetable padding to make Yarra Trams look good
* Most tram routes only serve the inner-city areas aside from just three routes (75, 86 and 109)
* Traffic lights are seemingly designed to delay trams for as long as possible in favour of letting massive amounts of cars through (typically 90 seconds) - it's not just against trams either, bus routes cop it even worse as B lights are rare as hens' teeth so there is literally no priority at all, plus the fact that bus timetables seem to be designed to fit a country town in the 1930s
* Tram stops immediately after traffic lights (or between blocks) so the tram has to stop twice
* Cars allowed to drive and remain on tram tracks (unless it's a Safety Zone or tram-only area) while the left lane doubles as on-street parking, forcing the through traffic onto the now-single lane which comprises of the tram tracks
* Cars allowed to stop on the tracks so that they can turn right due to an almost complete lack of hook turns outside the CBD
* Decrepit infrastructure which was last updated seventy years ago - any tram route where you can feel every single joint are the original rails from the 1950s or 1960s, such as Camberwell Rd, Glenferrie Rd, Cotham Rd etc.
* Lack of accessible platforms aside from within the Free Tram Zone and the token E class routes (and for some reason, the outer end of the 75) and a few scattered here and there
* Inferior metal used for tracks which causes the rails to be chewed out by the tram wheels (between the 70s and 2000s we were even using lightweight T-section train tracks as some complete moron decided to scrap the equipment used to make grooved rails - we now buy the rails from overseas with our dollar that isn't worth peanuts courtesy of the federal Liberal Party and its never-ending quest for that Budget Surplus™ - I'm surprised the AUD hasn't stooped to 10 US cents yet or even gone into hyperinflation) - never mind the hopeless point frogs where a tram cannot move faster than 15 km/h over them just in case the tram ends up derailing even on the straight (case in point, the 96 at Middle Park, made even more unbearable with the huge E classes - meanwhile on the 109 at Deepdene some tram drivers race their flimsy old Citadises over the crossover at 60 without any issues whatsoever)
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I wonder if it's because the E class are more intensely supervised by the management or are they really more prone of derailment.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
It could be an option to start a tram network from scratch, but replacing an existing network with it has no environmental benefit.  In fact, rubber tyres consume more energy under otherwise the same circumstances due to increased resistance.
route14
Pretty much spot on. A recent report I saw was that they are the most excessive energy sucking, grossly inefficient abortions of a concept ever invented. A new trendy fad that will disappear into irrelevance in a few years, like the obsolete O-bahn concept that has one orphaned route in Adelaide.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Those buses operate as trolley buses in the city, I believe.  Again, a good alternative to buses but not worth replacing trams with them.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Visited Melbourne yesterday and drive this time as we had to stay overnight. The traffic was horrible with roads at a crawl on routes. How people live with this now ?

It feels worse than before COVID.

With all the traffic why on earth would you try and out something more on the road ?

Another observation the number of trucks on the M1 is out of control.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Visited Melbourne yesterday and drive this time as we had to stay overnight. The traffic was horrible with roads at a crawl on routes. How people live with this now ?

It feels worse than before COVID.

With all the traffic why on earth would you try and out something more on the road ?

Another observation the number of trucks on the M1 is out of control.
freightgate
We are living with the result of decades of neglect of public transport. Years ago, we electrified the railway from Broadmeadows to Craigieburn, and the official opening of this vast(?) project was amazing. You'd have thought we'd just invented the wheel or the flush toilet. It was basically the only advance in suburban transport in years so they had to celebrate something. Public transport in Melbourne is excellent for me and my elder son; we both live in Richmond about 2 km from the centre of the city. Then there's my younger son; he lives out in Bayswater, and heaven help him if he has to rely on PT.
The result of the poor Melbourne transport over generations is that we have the most car orientated mindset imaginable. To feed it, we go ahead spending squillions on roads, tunnels et al, in effect saying, "Here's more room for you to play with your cars." The Metro rail tunnel project now under construction will be of some importance to those living within about 10 km of the CBD, but I cannot see any improvement for the people who live further out. We have been talking about railways to Doncaster, Monash et al, tramway extensions, an airport railway and so on since Cocky was an egg, and none is any closer to actually happening. We are removing level crossings; who benefits? . . . the motorist, who else? So, the car population continues to expand for want of any convenient option. It shows the resilience of the human spirit - we can just get used to what we've got.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
[citation needed]

Unless of course you literally mean Melbourne, as in postcode 3000, otherwise...

* Impossibly slow speeds
* Excessive timetable padding to make Yarra Trams look good
* Most tram routes only serve the inner-city areas aside from just three routes (75, 86 and 109)
* Traffic lights are seemingly designed to delay trams for as long as possible in favour of letting massive amounts of cars through (typically 90 seconds) - it's not just against trams either, bus routes cop it even worse as B lights are rare as hens' teeth so there is literally no priority at all, plus the fact that bus timetables seem to be designed to fit a country town in the 1930s
* Tram stops immediately after traffic lights (or between blocks) so the tram has to stop twice
* Cars allowed to drive and remain on tram tracks (unless it's a Safety Zone or tram-only area) while the left lane doubles as on-street parking, forcing the through traffic onto the now-single lane which comprises of the tram tracks
* Cars allowed to stop on the tracks so that they can turn right due to an almost complete lack of hook turns outside the CBD
* Decrepit infrastructure which was last updated seventy years ago - any tram route where you can feel every single joint are the original rails from the 1950s or 1960s, such as Camberwell Rd, Glenferrie Rd, Cotham Rd etc.
* Lack of accessible platforms aside from within the Free Tram Zone and the token E class routes (and for some reason, the outer end of the 75) and a few scattered here and there
* Inferior metal used for tracks which causes the rails to be chewed out by the tram wheels (between the 70s and 2000s we were even using lightweight T-section train tracks as some complete moron decided to scrap the equipment used to make grooved rails - we now buy the rails from overseas with our dollar that isn't worth peanuts courtesy of the federal Liberal Party and its never-ending quest for that Budget Surplus™ - I'm surprised the AUD hasn't stooped to 10 US cents yet or even gone into hyperinflation) - never mind the hopeless point frogs where a tram cannot move faster than 15 km/h over them just in case the tram ends up derailing even on the straight (case in point, the 96 at Middle Park, made even more unbearable with the huge E classes - meanwhile on the 109 at Deepdene some tram drivers race their flimsy old Citadises over the crossover at 60 without any issues whatsoever)
Heihachi_73
Few corrections
- Tram/LR is mostly an inner city technology, its too slow even on dedicated ROW to travel long distances. Max distance for tram/LR is about 10-12km, after which sharp objects need to removed from passengers.

- Tram stops twice at lights anyway, if the stop was before.

- Tram tracks have generational life spans, hence bad track is there to be enjoyed by all for a long time

- The use of trams on 4 lane roads is a legacy of the past and why its not done anymore. Notice almost no new tram project in Australia since the 90's uses a shared right of way apart from maybe very short section due to turning. The alt for Mel with these legacy corridors is to close the tram line.

- Up until recently Australia's annual requirement for tram/grooved rail was a few km/year and realistically likely only a bit more now and project dependent. Hence its imported as no one will liekly make money making it here.

- The $A is 77c, that is not peanuts. A comfortable range that supports out export industry and jobs

- Surpluses are needed to avoid going perpetually into debt like Greece and the US. To think otherwise is irrational. The current govt was also heavily critised for taking so long to achieve a surplus, just prior to CV-19 and amounted $500B (or what ever) of debt in the process, so pick a side. Yes the LNP has a long history of focus on surplus because it most states and feds in Aus the LNP is always left to pay of someone else's debt. See how long you can live spending 3% more than you earn before the bank gives you a call?

- You maybe surprised the AUD hasn't dropped to 10c or hyperinflation because we are not a 3rd rate economy, but one of the worlds strongest, but it would appear your lack of basic economic understanding is why you are surprised.

- Yes there are numerous areas of the network the track can be modernised and improved, but it all comes at a price. Who pays?

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