The wait continues for report on Lydiard St rail gate smash

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 28 Jul 2020 10:12
  Upven Junior Train Controller

Boom! Video!
Gate Smash
Happiestdays1967

How fast was that thing going?! Just wow

edit: upon review it was going through at around 99km/hour.

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
I wonder how fast it was travelling though the Humffray Street crossing about 1.5 Km earlier and the G Forces on the curve between Humffray Street and the Ballarat station platform must have had to have been experienced to believe.

Mike.
  Tii Junior Train Controller

Boom! Video!
Gate Smash

How fast was that thing going?! Just wow

edit: upon review it was going through at around 99km/hour.
Upven
EEK! There's so much that have could have ended in tragedy there. The video is more frightening every time I see it.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Centrifugal force is different from G force.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Centrifugal force is different from G force.
route14

Being a humble state public servant and not a physicist, I'l happy to stand corrected. Smile

Mike.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Centrifugal force is different from G force.
route14
As is Centripetal Force.
  Upven Junior Train Controller

I wonder how fast it was travelling though the Humffray Street crossing about 1.5 Km earlier and the G Forces on the curve between Humffray Street and the Ballarat station platform must have had to have been experienced to believe.

Mike.
The Vinelander

117km/hr according to the preliminary https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2020/rair/ro-2020-007/
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Boom! Video!
Gate Smash

How fast was that thing going?! Just wow

edit: upon review it was going through at around 99km/hour.
Upven
WOW, that was pretty fast for that area wasn't it, you can see the headlights on the gates for several seconds before it smashes through. Presumably the driver was standing on the horn the whole way -
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
V/locities don't have horns.  There is a cat in the cabin and the driver pulls it's tail.  (Well, sounds like that)
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
One would have thought that given the serious nature of this incident involving both high capacity and numerically prolific passenger carrying vehicles that the ATSB/Vline/PTV and the media (whoever) would be displaying a little more interest and enthusiasm in establishing the cause of the problem and rectifying it.

It is now one week short of 12 months since the incident.

Perhaps saving them up for a mass of reports in June to make the Annual report look good. They did that last year.

Any resemblance to a Boeing 737 Max is coincidental .............
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Presumably the driver was standing on the horn the whole way -
don_dunstan
I hope not. He/she should be running through the exit, yelling at pax to hang on.
Don't expect driver to just sit there and watch his demise come thru the windscreen.

With any foresight , the Vlo has a horn switch for continuous "on".
But I doubt safety protocols consider that equally driver, pax and peds need protection.

cheers
John
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Again, the driver would have been fully occupied in fault finding procedures.  The use of horn and / or PA would have made minimal difference in the outcome had there been other factors contributing to an accident.  I think the driver did a great job.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Presumably the driver was standing on the horn the whole way -
I hope not. He/she should be running through the exit, yelling at pax to hang on.
Don't expect driver to just sit there and watch his demise come thru the windscreen.

With any foresight , the Vlo has a horn switch for continuous "on".
But I doubt safety protocols consider that equally driver, pax and peds need protection.

cheers
John
justarider
Surely you're taking the pi$$ with that suggestion?

The timeline involved, coupled with your previous suggestion that the Driver should be trying to contact Centrol to have BAT20 cleared and the gates opened for rail traffic and assistance requested don't gel.

In 15 years driving everything from the 48 Class, through the (then brand-spankers) 92's to my current steed of off-the-shelf American horses, I have yet to see anything that has a "continuous on" for a horn control. The 48's had the old-school pull-cord, the 81/82/90/92's had a small lever, the Seppo stuff has a button (or two, if they have the 'town horn' option).

If this is what it looks like, a WSPS activation that effectively over-rode the Driver's brake demand to save the wheels, then that is what should be looked at insofar as 'safety protocols' and who thought that would be a good idea. When I go to Emergency, I want every pound of air in those brake cylinders I can get, and to hell with the wheel damage if they lock up.

I'd be very interested in finding out if QR modified the software on their SMU/IMU series in response to the T842 incident to prevent such an aggressive reduction in brake cylinder pressure due to wheel slide when in Emergency.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Surely you're taking the pi$$ with that suggestion?
"KRviator"
No; he just forgot to put in the bit about the ejector seat.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Presumably the driver was standing on the horn the whole way -
I hope not. He/she should be running through the exit, yelling at pax to hang on.
Don't expect driver to just sit there and watch his demise come thru the windscreen.

With any foresight , the Vlo has a horn switch for continuous "on".
But I doubt safety protocols consider that equally driver, pax and peds need protection.

cheers
John
Surely you're taking the pi$$ with that suggestion?

The timeline involved, coupled with your previous suggestion that the Driver should be trying to contact Centrol to have BAT20 cleared and the gates opened for rail traffic and assistance requested don't gel.

In 15 years driving everything from the 48 Class, through the (then brand-spankers) 92's to my current steed of off-the-shelf American horses, I have yet to see anything that has a "continuous on" for a horn control. The 48's had the old-school pull-cord, the 81/82/90/92's had a small lever, the Seppo stuff has a button (or two, if they have the 'town horn' option).

If this is what it looks like, a WSPS activation that effectively over-rode the Driver's brake demand to save the wheels, then that is what should be looked at insofar as 'safety protocols' and who thought that would be a good idea. When I go to Emergency, I want every pound of air in those brake cylinders I can get, and to hell with the wheel damage if they lock up.

I'd be very interested in finding out if QR modified the software on their SMU/IMU series in response to the T842 incident to prevent such an aggressive reduction in brake cylinder pressure due to wheel slide when in Emergency.
KRviator
Definitely not being pissacaciuos.

After the driver locked on the emergency brakes, all he could do is save as many lifes as possible. Especially if the "system" ignored his command.
1. save himself
2. save his passengers
3. save anybody in the way.

1 & 2 take a lot of self awareness and good reaction. Training and experiece helps a lot.
3. depends upon the technology available.

If the horn depends entirely on the driver riding it until his death, that is disgraceful. Of all possible technology, that would surely be the simpliest to solve.

I understand your reasoning that contacting Centrol was problematic.
We can only hope that the enquiry investigates your assertion that contact with, and prompt reaction by Centrol is often lacking.

cheers
John
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
2025 anyone ????????????????
  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

Presumably the driver was standing on the horn the whole way -
I hope not. He/she should be running through the exit, yelling at pax to hang on.
Don't expect driver to just sit there and watch his demise come thru the windscreen.

With any foresight , the Vlo has a horn switch for continuous "on".
But I doubt safety protocols consider that equally driver, pax and peds need protection.

cheers
John
Surely you're taking the pi$$ with that suggestion?

The timeline involved, coupled with your previous suggestion that the Driver should be trying to contact Centrol to have BAT20 cleared and the gates opened for rail traffic and assistance requested don't gel.

In 15 years driving everything from the 48 Class, through the (then brand-spankers) 92's to my current steed of off-the-shelf American horses, I have yet to see anything that has a "continuous on" for a horn control. The 48's had the old-school pull-cord, the 81/82/90/92's had a small lever, the Seppo stuff has a button (or two, if they have the 'town horn' option).

If this is what it looks like, a WSPS activation that effectively over-rode the Driver's brake demand to save the wheels, then that is what should be looked at insofar as 'safety protocols' and who thought that would be a good idea. When I go to Emergency, I want every pound of air in those brake cylinders I can get, and to hell with the wheel damage if they lock up.

I'd be very interested in finding out if QR modified the software on their SMU/IMU series in response to the T842 incident to prevent such an aggressive reduction in brake cylinder pressure due to wheel slide when in Emergency.
Definitely not being pissacaciuos.

After the driver locked on the emergency brakes, all he could do is save as many lifes as possible. Especially if the "system" ignored his command.
1. save himself
2. save his passengers
3. save anybody in the way.

1 & 2 take a lot of self awareness and good reaction. Training and experiece helps a lot.
3. depends upon the technology available.

If the horn depends entirely on the driver riding it until his death, that is disgraceful. Of all possible technology, that would surely be the simpliest to solve.

I understand your reasoning that contacting Centrol was problematic.
We can only hope that the enquiry investigates your assertion that contact with, and prompt reaction by Centrol is often lacking.

cheers
John
justarider
If the train design does not apply full emergency and sound the horn ongoing once the driver hits the Jesus button then this is something that ATSB have to identify and require corrective action of.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
2025 anyone ????????????????
"YM-Mundrabilla"
Current odds are 5/2.
  8502 Train Controller

A video has now been released of the incident showing the speed of the train which was not braking at least I can see it was not.

https://streamable.com/yyfjkd
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
V/locities don't have horns.  There is a cat in the cabin and the driver pulls it's tail.  (Well, sounds like that)
Donald
Well, we could always pull the horns out of the Comeng sparks when they meet their demise, I'm sure a trio of half-dead mice singing should be better than pulling a cat's tail. Nothing beats a 3-chime RVB chock dull of dust.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
If the train design does not apply full emergency and sound the horn ongoing once the driver hits the Jesus button then this is something that ATSB have to identify and require corrective action of.
gunzel42
It may seem odd to outsiders but as a driver I can say there is no way I want the whistle to be automatically operated when placing the train into emergency.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
V/locities don't have horns.  There is a cat in the cabin and the driver pulls it's tail.  (Well, sounds like that)
Well, we could always pull the horns out of the Comeng sparks when they meet their demise, I'm sure a trio of half-dead mice singing should be better than pulling a cat's tail. Nothing beats a 3-chime RVB chock dull of dust.
Heihachi_73
Perhaps we could change the whistles AFTER we fix the brakes in 2030 or thereabouts.

No RVB rubbish either -  Leslie 5-chime or nothing .............. Smile

Has there ever been a study into any relationship between level crossing accidents and the type of whistle fitted to the locomotive/railcar involved?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
If the train design does not apply full emergency and sound the horn ongoing once the driver hits the Jesus button then this is something that ATSB have to identify and require corrective action of.
It may seem odd to outsiders but as a driver I can say there is no way I want the whistle to be automatically operated when placing the train into emergency.
jakar
Assuming proper driver training and experience.
Trust the driver let him/her drive the thing. We do not need a Boeing 737 MAX on rails.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Has there ever been a study into any relationship between level crossing accidents and the type of whistle fitted to the locomotive/railcar involved?
"YM-Mundrabilla
Hang on for a minute, and I'll check with Sir Humphrey.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Apparently V/Line had commissioned replacement gates for Lydiard St before the accident...

https://www.3ba.com.au/news/local-news/105422-new-lydiard-gates-constructed-but-remain-in-storage

(Note that this is just the gates themselves, not the gateposts, gateshafts, hinges or mechanism.)

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