Canberra needs to be part of NSW’s fast rail plans

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 17 May 2021 19:29
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There is a lot to be gained from including Fast Rail in the NSW plans if they ever get off the ground.

160 km/h running would reduce the travel time between Sydney and Canberra to what 2 hours?

Canberra needs to be part of NSW’s fast rail plans

Sponsored advertisement

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There is a lot to be gained from including Fast Rail in the NSW plans if they ever get off the ground.

160 km/h running would reduce the travel time between Sydney and Canberra to what 2 hours?

Canberra needs to be part of NSW’s fast rail plans
bevans
About 2.5 to 3h as they won't get much more out of the corridor from Central to Campbelltown.

However this would be more than sufficient improvement over the current 4.25h
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There is a lot to be gained from including Fast Rail in the NSW plans if they ever get off the ground.

160 km/h running would reduce the travel time between Sydney and Canberra to what 2 hours?

Canberra needs to be part of NSW’s fast rail plans
bevans
About 2.5 to 3h as they won't get much more out of the corridor from Central to Campbelltown.

However this would be more than sufficient improvement over the current 4.25h
  cityrail-rulez Chief Train Controller

This fast rail or high speed rail will never happen in Australia!

To be honest Canberra is apart of the Metropolitan railway network of Sydney, but still no electrification has been done
Same with Lithgow to Bathurst, Kiama to Bomaderry, Unanderra to Moss Vale "May prove to be pointless there's only one railway station along the corridor that is officially opened, that would be Robertson - Ranelagh House isn't exactly a railway station, it's a private platform", Newcastle to Dungog and Scone (Werris Creek would be better)

NSW should think like Queensland where electrification pretty much runs over the entire state... Back in the 1980s not sure if anyone also knew or was even aware of any prototype Electric XPT was considered, I do have an artist impression picture of an Electric version of the XPT. That means that the NSW government may have considered having all mainlines in NSW electrified at some point

It's all talks and talks, just to get more and more votes in! There will be no fast or high speed rail in Australia... Maybe they should consider one from Sydney to Perth "The track is pretty well straight enough, all it needs is electrification"
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
This fast rail or high speed rail will never happen in Australia!

To be honest Canberra is apart of the Metropolitan railway network of Sydney, but still no electrification has been done
Same with Lithgow to Bathurst, Kiama to Bomaderry, Unanderra to Moss Vale "May prove to be pointless there's only one railway station along the corridor that is officially opened, that would be Robertson - Ranelagh House isn't exactly a railway station, it's a private platform", Newcastle to Dungog and Scone (Werris Creek would be better)

NSW should think like Queensland where electrification pretty much runs over the entire state... Back in the 1980s not sure if anyone also knew or was even aware of any prototype Electric XPT was considered, I do have an artist impression picture of an Electric version of the XPT. That means that the NSW government may have considered having all mainlines in NSW electrified at some point

It's all talks and talks, just to get more and more votes in! There will be no fast or high speed rail in Australia... Maybe they should consider one from Sydney to Perth "The track is pretty well straight enough, all it needs is electrification"
cityrail-rulez
The bulk of the interurban electrification around Sydney is all based on the needs for coal and general freight and higher density passenger services of the 60's to 80's. The only extension since has been to Kiama, mostly political and timed with retirement of older diesel power rolling stock.

Extension of the OH to Bathurst and Bomaderry is not economic, although the later maybe done for no other reason than its a pain to operate a DMU at that far end of the network and to improve service frequency for a few hours a day.

The South Main is likely economic to spark, but there is now the added complexity that this route is part of the National Network and subject to DS clearances.

The routes outside BRisbane that are sparked are limited to the Gold Coast line and  the North coast line to Rockhampton only. The project to extend to Townsville was cancelled. North of Gympie North there is just 2 trains a day that use this electrification. When the CTT was bought, the Qld govt while initially indicated it would buy hybrids, later bought DH units. Should this train be purchased today, I'm sure it would be a hybrid. Only the CQ high frequency coal network is sparked and only coal trains operating in this network are spark powered. The bulk of the state is actually not sparked.

NSW did at one point consider sparking to Melbourne, but it was dismissed as not economic and it would be less economic today.

Canberra should not be sparked yet, the new CAF trains are hybrids and the focus should be track/alignment improvement and same for south main. Sparking should progressively extend to Moss Vale by 2030.

No one is going to build a HSR to Perth. The track isn't suited to +160km/h operation and would need alot of work just to get to 160 km/h. Even if it sat on 350km/h stop to stop, non stop it would take 12h.
  cityrail-rulez Chief Train Controller

This fast rail or high speed rail will never happen in Australia!

To be honest Canberra is apart of the Metropolitan railway network of Sydney, but still no electrification has been done
Same with Lithgow to Bathurst, Kiama to Bomaderry, Unanderra to Moss Vale "May prove to be pointless there's only one railway station along the corridor that is officially opened, that would be Robertson - Ranelagh House isn't exactly a railway station, it's a private platform", Newcastle to Dungog and Scone (Werris Creek would be better)

NSW should think like Queensland where electrification pretty much runs over the entire state... Back in the 1980s not sure if anyone also knew or was even aware of any prototype Electric XPT was considered, I do have an artist impression picture of an Electric version of the XPT. That means that the NSW government may have considered having all mainlines in NSW electrified at some point

It's all talks and talks, just to get more and more votes in! There will be no fast or high speed rail in Australia... Maybe they should consider one from Sydney to Perth "The track is pretty well straight enough, all it needs is electrification"
The bulk of the interurban electrification around Sydney is all based on the needs for coal and general freight and higher density passenger services of the 60's to 80's. The only extension since has been to Kiama, mostly political and timed with retirement of older diesel power rolling stock.

Extension of the OH to Bathurst and Bomaderry is not economic, although the later maybe done for no other reason than its a pain to operate a DMU at that far end of the network and to improve service frequency for a few hours a day.

The South Main is likely economic to spark, but there is now the added complexity that this route is part of the National Network and subject to DS clearances.

The routes outside BRisbane that are sparked are limited to the Gold Coast line and  the North coast line to Rockhampton only. The project to extend to Townsville was cancelled. North of Gympie North there is just 2 trains a day that use this electrification. When the CTT was bought, the Qld govt while initially indicated it would buy hybrids, later bought DH units. Should this train be purchased today, I'm sure it would be a hybrid. Only the CQ high frequency coal network is sparked and only coal trains operating in this network are spark powered. The bulk of the state is actually not sparked.

NSW did at one point consider sparking to Melbourne, but it was dismissed as not economic and it would be less economic today.

Canberra should not be sparked yet, the new CAF trains are hybrids and the focus should be track/alignment improvement and same for south main. Sparking should progressively extend to Moss Vale by 2030.

No one is going to build a HSR to Perth. The track isn't suited to +160km/h operation and would need alot of work just to get to 160 km/h. Even if it sat on 350km/h stop to stop, non stop it would take 12h.
RTT_Rules
Well, there you go! Smile Thanks for the response!

Not sure why the government would plan electrification to Moss Vale only by 2030! Why not to Goulburn? Goulburn is large enough to build storage facilities for electric trains and maintenance sidings using the old wheat yard sidings, add electric train storage roads to where the old Dock roads were, remove the old foot bridge and reopen platforms 2 & 3 with an elevator/lift access with a new bridge/concourse, electrify the old car roads adjutant to platform 3 for storage. Overall, it's that simple! Goulburn has more potential than Moss Vale for an electrification scheme "Just saying" but doubt it would ever happen

As for a HSR from Sydney to Perth, I was being sarcastic LOL Laughing But it would be funny if the government did consider it! It would cost probably around $10 to $15 billion for new bridges, tunnels and of course a double track with electrification to be considered.. There's no way in the world Australia really needs any fast rail or high speed rail anyway, everyone either has a car or we find other ways to travel "if Australia had no airports it would have been built"
  coit Locomotive Driver

Location: Weston,NSW
The Whitlam federal government offered to electrify between Sydney and Melbourne, but NSW and Victoria both had Liberal governments that wanted nothing to do with Labor ideas.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
There is a lot to be gained from including Fast Rail in the NSW plans if they ever get off the ground.

160 km/h running would reduce the travel time between Sydney and Canberra to what 2 hours?

Canberra needs to be part of NSW’s fast rail plans
bevans
It already is.  Read some of the previous studies.

Although I wonder why NSW should spend a single dollar towards those in the ACT who use NSW infrastructure with nil contribution.

Happy travelling,

John
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Whitlam federal government offered to electrify between Sydney and Melbourne, but NSW and Victoria both had Liberal governments that wanted nothing to do with Labor ideas.
coit
Had it occurred, I think the evidence is strong to say it would have since been abandoned. Maybe NSW would run sparks to Goulburn, but that's it.

Qld has a far more modern 25kV system to Rocky and originally Emerald. Emerald spark non coal freights stopped within 10 years of starting and mainline sparks ceased within 10 years of that.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Well, there you go! Smile Thanks for the response!

Not sure why the government would plan electrification to Moss Vale only by 2030! Why not to Goulburn? Goulburn is large enough to build storage facilities for electric trains and maintenance sidings using the old wheat yard sidings, add electric train storage roads to where the old Dock roads were, remove the old foot bridge and reopen platforms 2 & 3 with an elevator/lift access with a new bridge/concourse, electrify the old car roads adjutant to platform 3 for storage. Overall, it's that simple! Goulburn has more potential than Moss Vale for an electrification scheme "Just saying" but doubt it would ever happen

As for a HSR from Sydney to Perth, I was being sarcastic LOL Laughing But it would be funny if the government did consider it! It would cost probably around $10 to $15 billion for new bridges, tunnels and of course a double track with electrification to be considered.. There's no way in the world Australia really needs any fast rail or high speed rail anyway, everyone either has a car or we find other ways to travel "if Australia had no airports it would have been built"
cityrail-rulez
Goulburn passenger traffic is insufficient, really not worth it. Moss Vale or at least say Picton is likely viable.

$1m/km of single track is your rough guide but I'm sure such a large project would get a heavy discount.

As per the Qld coal network, you don't need to bother with running wires across LX so as to not worry about high loads on trucks and with point to point rake load train movements, spark technology doesn't have to deal with wagon load deliveries.

Realistically if the govt wanted to, the line from Sydney and Melbourne to Darwin and Perth could easily be sparked and fully automated. Perhaps you may have a two train Supervisors who can drive the train, but don't and are there as backup, but I think even this is not required anymore with Industry 4.0 technology where smart camera's monitor trains movements as well as track side equipment.

Once complete then ban all truck and sea freight suited for rail haulage.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

To be honest Canberra is apart of the Metropolitan railway network of Sydney
cityrail-rulez

No it isn't and never has been. Part of NSW railways yes but never the Metropolitan network.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
To be honest Canberra is apart of the Metropolitan railway network of Sydney

No it isn't and never has been. Part of NSW railways yes but never the Metropolitan network.
simstrain
I think the point is Canberra should be part of the Interurban network, not booked country services.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

To be honest Canberra is apart of the Metropolitan railway network of Sydney

No it isn't and never has been. Part of NSW railways yes but never the Metropolitan network.
I think the point is Canberra should be part of the Interurban network, not booked country services.
RTT_Rules

I don't think so either since it is over 300km's away and well beyond what is currently run as a Sydney Interurban.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
To be honest Canberra is apart of the Metropolitan railway network of Sydney

No it isn't and never has been. Part of NSW railways yes but never the Metropolitan network.
I think the point is Canberra should be part of the Interurban network, not booked country services.

I don't think so either since it is over 300km's away and well beyond what is currently run as a Sydney Interurban.
simstrain
What's distance got to do with it?

We all know should the frequency of services be increased, so will the number of users.

If there is to be infrastructure improvements to reduce the travel time, the number of users will increase.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I can imagine Picton and eventually Moss Vale under wires long term .
not enough traffic to bother south to Goulburn .

Can'tbra , general consensus - a hole that only gets daylight from 10 till 2 . Why bother .
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I can imagine Picton and eventually Moss Vale under wires long term .
not enough traffic to bother south to Goulburn .

Can'tbra , general consensus - a hole that only gets daylight from 10 till 2 . Why bother .
BDA
The current long term plan is to extend the wires to Nowra, Goulburn, Bathurst and Maitland.  With the new regional passenger train fleet being hybrid diesel/electric, it will be more economical to operate as the wires are progressively extended.  It may also create an incentive for freight operators to order new hybrid diesel/electric locos when needed to operate under the wires on the steep grades coming into and out of the Sydney basin.  

A journey from Maitland to Goulburn is over 400km and Bathurst to Sydney is 200km, which would save a not insignificant cost in diesel fuel on the steep grades.  Why do you think that they extended the wires to Lithgow for coal trains?  It certainly wasn't for passenger traffic, which just happened to be a beneficiary, and that was long before carbon emissions became an issue.  There is no reason why coal trains from Lithgow to Port Kembla and Newcastle couldn't be operated more efficiently with hyprid or even electric locos to this day, as the lines for the most part are wired.  Just as an aside, if the freight network hadn't been sold off to the private sector, then this would already have happened.

As a Sydneysider and a regular visitor, I actually like Canberra, and suggest that those who criticise it haven't been there to experience its broad attraction of National cultural institutions, not to mention a vibrant nightlife.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Done purely for coal traffic , yeah right ...
If you had worked loaded coal trains on the Illa and the west you'd know 4 86s suckling off the dinosaur 1500V overhead were slugs . Crawled up Zig Zag and Loftus and Como , 4 diesel electrics of the same horsepower were always better .
And then there was the engine change issues ie west of Lithgow .
They tell you that frame cracking issues were the biggie with 86s in private hands , the little matter of cost of feeding them was a big issue .
When you own feed run diesel electrics , the people controlling the overhead supply don't get to muck you around .

Running the wire from Kiama to Nowra and Broady to Maitland makes sense , speed up pass services .
If you ever followed rail motors from Broady to Maitland on a freighter you'd know how slow these all stopping slugs are .

Lithgow to Bathurst ? Try building a real world alignment first because electrifying the existing is sheer lunacy .
  lowtensionearth Station Master

I can echo BDA’s post above. By the late 1990s it had been decided that electric locomotives did not have a long term future with FreightCorp.

The 85 and 86 classes could not haul the same loads as the 3000hp GM’s which we considered the standard going forward. The heavy bounds put on electric haulage by the 1500v overhead system and supporting infrastructure precluded even new electric locomotives matching the diesels haulage capabilities under the wires.

By the late 1990s the then lucrative North West Cotton and Blayney FCL container trains were already being diesel hauled hauled throughout. In some cases, trains were running under the wires behind diesels with newly route qualified country crews who weren’t qualified for electric traction. Not having to train the country staff in electric traction or spending time on a loco change allowed the longer distance crewing to happen.

It’s a nice thought but even in 1999 we realised 1500v electrification in NSW had no use other than for passenger trains. The gradients encountered and the larger trains demanded going forward precluded electric hauled freight services.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Done purely for coal traffic , yeah right ...
If you had worked loaded coal trains on the Illa and the west you'd know 4 86s suckling off the dinosaur 1500V overhead were slugs . Crawled up Zig Zag and Loftus and Como , 4 diesel electrics of the same horsepower were always better .
And then there was the engine change issues ie west of Lithgow .
They tell you that frame cracking issues were the biggie with 86s in private hands , the little matter of cost of feeding them was a big issue .
When you own feed run diesel electrics , the people controlling the overhead supply don't get to muck you around .

Running the wire from Kiama to Nowra and Broady to Maitland makes sense , speed up pass services .
If you ever followed rail motors from Broady to Maitland on a freighter you'd know how slow these all stopping slugs are .

Lithgow to Bathurst ? Try building a real world alignment first because electrifying the existing is sheer lunacy .
BDA
Lithgow OH was done for coal traffic long before the 86 was even planned.

Agree, but 86's were old technology when new and didn't age well considering other operational changes.

OH voltage won't change although I thought the move to dual contact wire should help somewhat. On the supply side, back then the operators were hit with fixed access fees for OH. If it were to come back today there would be an access charge and pay for net power consumed after factoring in some regen.

Hybrid engine technology is today now cheaper which could help the economics for bringing in some hybrid locos. If the train is too heavy for the OH, then leave one of diesel when needed. All this is now easier and automatically capable. Driver wouldn't even know.

However is a measly 200km from Sydney in any direction of wires enough to justify buying hybrid locos for freight? Not sure. Only tightening pollution controls will drive this
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The Whitlam federal government offered to electrify between Sydney and Melbourne, but NSW and Victoria both had Liberal governments that wanted nothing to do with Labor ideas.
coit
Actually no it wasn't Whitlam on second glance - it was Fraser. From Hansard -

Q. Did the Fraser Government offer the Governments of New South Wales and Victoria to meet all or part of the cost of electrifying the railway between Sydney and Melbourne; if so, what were the responses of the State Governments.

A. I understand that following the findings of the Sydney-Melbourne Railway Electrification Study in 1980 the Federal Government offered to provide $300 million (or 50 per cent of the cost) towards electrification of the Sydney-Melbourne line. This proposal was given a low priority by the New South Wales and Victorian Governments and the Federal Government later withdrew the offer.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
86 level tech had nothing to do with it , the overhead could not supply the current to effectively feed more than two of them .
It would not matter how you configured elec locos , the juice isn't there .

Dual won't work with diesel electrics because there is no way it would fit in the car bodies or if it did they would get heavier and they are already pretty much at allowable limits .
  7334 Chief Commissioner

Location: In the workshop wondering why I started 7334 in the first place
The Whitlam federal government offered to electrify between Sydney and Melbourne, but NSW and Victoria both had Liberal governments that wanted nothing to do with Labor ideas.
Actually no it wasn't Whitlam on second glance - it was Fraser. From Hansard -

Q. Did the Fraser Government offer the Governments of New South Wales and Victoria to meet all or part of the cost of electrifying the railway between Sydney and Melbourne; if so, what were the responses of the State Governments.

A. I understand that following the findings of the Sydney-Melbourne Railway Electrification Study in 1980 the Federal Government offered to provide $300 million (or 50 per cent of the cost) towards electrification of the Sydney-Melbourne line. This proposal was given a low priority by the New South Wales and Victorian Governments and the Federal Government later withdrew the offer.
don_dunstan
At the time the proposal was to electrify all the way with 1500VDC which is probably a good comment on the thinking of the then State Rail authority.  Feeders every few miles adding to the cost apart from perpetuating an outdated technology.

I remember reading later that David Hill supposedly asked why you would not go for something like 25KV AC and was told that dual voltage in a single locomotive could not be done.  He later went to Europe and saw that it could and was.

The Maldon - Dombarton line was intended to be electrified with something like the 25KV AC and had that happened it might have been the catalyst for further high voltage electrification but only if the single operator government systems had continued which was not going to happen.  Even so the old 1500VDC network would have stayed in place on what are some of the more difficult routes around the Sydney basin.

I find it difficult to see a national operator wanting to tailor a fleet of hybrid diesel / multi current electrics just to operate the relatively few kms into and out of Sydney given the increased costs both for initial acquisition and ongoing maintenance.  Also, as BDA has said "When you own feed run diesel electrics the people controlling the overhead supply don't get to muck you around".

A school friend became an engineer with State Rail and he told me that when the electrification was extended from Waterfall to Wollongong was done the feeder infrastructure north of waterfall was not upgraded to any extent from what had been necessary to run suburban electrics.  That meant that even the 86s could not be worked to their capabilities because as BDA has said, the power just was not there to allow it.  Which is why the 81 class powered coal trains used to (relatively speaking) bound up the hills from Como southbound.  Another government economy compromising the finished product.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Back in the day you were hauling 3100T up the 1:40s with 3 81s or 4 86s . In the dry you could do it today with 2 93s/TTs .
86s with motor alternators and cams for switching are basically K set technology - dinosaurs .
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thinking through this some more.

The hybrid CAF's are here (soon) to take over the route to Canberra and Goulburn/MV. This pretty much pushes back any rush for OH south of Macuthur for years to come.  Any drive to push the O/H south will be driven by demand of MV services, nothing else. On current numbers this is likely decade or more away, by which time considering these trains spend the first and last 50km of their return journey from Sydney under wires, battery technology will negate the need for both OH and diesel. Yes OH will likely be fitted at the terminus stations and storage yards for charging, but that's it.  Charging at intermediate stations is unlikely to be viable as the duration of the stop is limited in time to less than 30sec.

The issue now in doing this is that battery technology is still too heavy and bulking for the performance required.

For freights, this a a much bigger issue. It will only happen if seen as a means to reducing CO2 footprint and legislation is implemented to force more freight on rail and then use electric traction which will of course be 25kVA, not 1500 VDC thus forcing the locos to be multiple hybrids, ie diesel and using both electric OH supplies.

Perhaps the current locos are not suited, but there are other options such as intermediate "car" that connects to the OH, has suitable conversion systems to use either 1500 VDC or 25kVA and has bus bars feeding into a diesel loco either side as well as its own traction motors to for a DM-MT-DM type arrangement. Under 1500 VDC, some diesel traction is likely to still be required for hills and starts when demand exceeds supply capability of the OH. To justify the rail operators investing in such technology, there will need to be both a directive from the govt and support in the way of forcing freight onto rail. Long haul electric trucks with 1000 km range or at least mid way top up during driver rest breaks are likely within a decade away.

The purpose of the DM still being diesel is to provide flexibility for the operators as OH will never be viable for most long haul freight in Australia. Battery technology development will likely see the need for 100% OH and brake regen energy to be stored.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: 7334, RTT_Rules, Transtopic

Display from: