Do you think the Canberra xplorer and Goulburn Endevour should be run as a single combined service?

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
15 sets of END.

14.  One was converted to an Xplorer - hence there being one less non-cab unit than sets.  Done post South Coast electrification.
djf01
Thanks for reminder

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Back on the the battery pack for the hybrid powerpack in the new trains. According to their brochure here (https://www.mtu-solutions.com/content/dam/mtu/download/applications/rail/16120356_Rail_Solutionguide.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./16120356_Rail_Solutionguide.pdf). MTU offers 4 sizes of battery from 30.6kWh and up to 122.4kWh per powerpack. How long do you think a 244.8kWh  of battery could propel these trains for?

MTU have shown that they can store the battery in the floor or the roof in their brochures and also that their diesel electric system is quite compact in size. Taking up much less space then the legacy KTA/QSK-19 and voith transmission systems. With no diesel engine in the middle car I see no reason why an extra 122.4kWh battery or more couldn't be inlcuded in the middle trailer/ electric motor car carriage. I'm not suggesting that you would be able to run electric all the way to Canberra. I see no reason this couldn't be achieved between Kiama and Bomaderry for instance.

As for advancements in battery technology that will soon be available look no further then the new solid state battery in the Rimac Nevera
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimac_Nevera


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kfyIB_9UtQ
simstrain
244 kW is around 30min per car.

I'm sure one day in the near future it maybe viable. However at the moment if it would work I'm sure they would be trying. Lots of factors, weight, space, space for cooling system etc.

For example Hunter trains could be recharging while under the wires and then onto battery north of Broadmeadow. However is the time under the wires long enough to recharge for the next run?

MV/Goulburn trains most likely have sufficient time under the wire to recharge.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
It would appear that the 2 short Intercity sets stabled at Dubbo would form the 2 morning Bathurst Bullet services, which would return in the afternoon and evening to Bathurst and then run dead to Dubbo for stabling overnight.  That's a 400km round trip.  The current END services stable overnight at Lithgow as far as I'm aware, which is obviously much closer to Bathurst.  If the Maintenance Centre was more centrally located, then that longer trip wouldn't be necessary.
No, one of the Intercity sets at Dubbo is a Maintenance Spare, so only one set would run empty to Bathurst. The other stabled service set is a Long Regional which presumably forms an early morning Dubbo-Sydney train. Perhaps with this train also serving Bathurst, the second Bullet becomes redundant. With that arrangement you have 1 Intercity, 1 Short Regional and 1 Long Regional working the West, so there is only one Intercity set running empty Dubbo-Bathurst. There are no new empty car paths required through the busy Sydney Network.
NSWRcars
I can see the point of the Short and Long Regional sets stabling in Dubbo with the introduction of the latter for a morning service to Sydney and return that evening, with the Short set taking over the role of the current XPT service.  However, as there doesn't appear to be a revenue service for the Short Intercity set to and from Dubbo, it seems ridiculous that the Bathurst Bullet service would make a daily 400km round trip from Bathurst to Dubbo just for overnight stabling.  I don't see why they couldn't continue to stable overnight in Lithgow and travel to Dubbo when a major maintenance visit is scheduled.  I'm still sceptical of the justification for the location of the maintenance centre in Dubbo, when a more central location would be preferable IMO.

I'd also like to know how the 10 Short Intercity sets will replace the current END services, having regard to the apparent shortfall.  That's assuming that all END stock is currently utilised, including for maintenance.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

244 kW is around 30min per car.

I'm sure one day in the near future it maybe viable. However at the moment if it would work I'm sure they would be trying. Lots of factors, weight, space, space for cooling system etc.

For example Hunter trains could be recharging while under the wires and then onto battery north of Broadmeadow. However is the time under the wires long enough to recharge for the next run?

MV/Goulburn trains most likely have sufficient time under the wire to recharge.
RTT_Rules

So basically if you put an extra battery pack in the middle car for 366kWh the trip from Kiama to Bomaderry could be done by battery power. Add overhead or a charging station installed at Bomaderry to allow the return journey.
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

However, as there doesn't appear to be a revenue service for the Short Intercity set to and from Dubbo, it seems ridiculous that the Bathurst Bullet service would make a daily 400km round trip from Bathurst to Dubbo just for overnight stabling.  I don't see why they couldn't continue to stable overnight in Lithgow and travel to Dubbo when a major maintenance visit is scheduled.
Transtopic
Remembering that you have 10 Intercity sets to cycle through Dubbo, so a different set for Bathurst each day (and the empty run to Dubbo). If you continued to return to Lithgow, that's just more dead running required.
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

Everyone knows that from an operational perspective, the best location for a Maintenance Centre is in Sydney. There are however other benefits locating it regionally, and that's what was decided. I suspect Dubbo was always the plan, and Goulburn was never in the race. The requirement to rotate the Regional fleet empty to Goulburn makes it unworkable - either dedicated dead paths through the busy Sydney network, or attach the empty trains to Intercity stoppers - imagine the fuel wastage accelerating those extra cars out of stations en-route. Dubbo on the other hand puts all dead running outside Sydney, on an express path... and it might even be feasible to run that empty Intercity set attached to the Long Regional that stables in Dubbo. Sure, that train will never be heavily patronised, but you'd then have ZERO empty car runs on the West.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Everyone knows that from an operational perspective, the best location for a Maintenance Centre is in Sydney. There are however other benefits locating it regionally, and that's what was decided. I suspect Dubbo was always the plan, and Goulburn was never in the race. The requirement to rotate the Regional fleet empty to Goulburn makes it unworkable - either dedicated dead paths through the busy Sydney network, or attach the empty trains to Intercity stoppers - imagine the fuel wastage accelerating those extra cars out of stations en-route. Dubbo on the other hand puts all dead running outside Sydney, on an express path... and it might even be feasible to run that empty Intercity set attached to the Long Regional that stables in Dubbo. Sure, that train will never be heavily patronised, but you'd then have ZERO empty car runs on the West.
NSWRcars
Given that there are very few stations along the route, I am blowed if there is any real reason to have a full set, no matter how many carriages run empty from Bathurst to Dubbo, its actually bad enough that the bullet has to run to Lithgow empty and stable, then run empty to Bx to run back to Sydney.

Surelly the sets when running empty should make seats available for passengers in both directions, it would not cost any more, in fact the few dollars earnt for the runs is better than not having any revenue from the trip.  How long does it take the bullet to run empty to Lithgow, compared to Orange?   also the extra time to Dubbo?

In the end politics for the Nationals won out, yet for little cost the old facilities at Bathurst could have been rebuilt for servicing the trains, that of course does not make a lot of sense though, as the Nationals also have the seat of Bathurst in their hands, but which polly has the most clout, &/or council.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Given that there are very few stations along the route, I am blowed if there is any real reason to have a full set, no matter how many carriages run empty from Bathurst to Dubbo, its actually bad enough that the bullet has to run to Lithgow empty and stable, then run empty to Bx to run back to Sydney.

Surelly the sets when running empty should make seats available for passengers in both directions, it would not cost any more, in fact the few dollars earnt for the runs is better than not having any revenue from the trip.  How long does it take the bullet to run empty to Lithgow, compared to Orange?   also the extra time to Dubbo?

In the end politics for the Nationals won out, yet for little cost the old facilities at Bathurst could have been rebuilt for servicing the trains, that of course does not make a lot of sense though, as the Nationals also have the seat of Bathurst in their hands, but which polly has the most clout, &/or council.
a6et

The bullet doesn't actually run empty from lithgow to bathurst in the morning and vice versa in the evening. There is a 3.42am and a 6.04am service in the morning running lithgow to bathurst that form the bullets.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Given that there are very few stations along the route, I am blowed if there is any real reason to have a full set, no matter how many carriages run empty from Bathurst to Dubbo, its actually bad enough that the bullet has to run to Lithgow empty and stable, then run empty to Bx to run back to Sydney.

Surelly the sets when running empty should make seats available for passengers in both directions, it would not cost any more, in fact the few dollars earnt for the runs is better than not having any revenue from the trip.  How long does it take the bullet to run empty to Lithgow, compared to Orange?   also the extra time to Dubbo?

In the end politics for the Nationals won out, yet for little cost the old facilities at Bathurst could have been rebuilt for servicing the trains, that of course does not make a lot of sense though, as the Nationals also have the seat of Bathurst in their hands, but which polly has the most clout, &/or council.

The bullet doesn't actually run empty from lithgow to bathurst in the morning and vice versa in the evening. There is a 3.42am and a 6.04am service in the morning running lithgow to bathurst that form the bullets.
simstrain
Thanks Sims

I was going on the original TT, when the bullet was first introduced and it was at that time, an empty car set for it to Bx & return.

Thing is, that the service could still work to Orange and stable for an early departure back.  The other aspect is what I said re the Dubbo empty cars running, if the TT's were arranged in such a way whereby they ran to Dubbo, with passengers in them rather than empty, same on return.  How many would use the service is an unknown at this point of time, I worked on the railways as an engineman for 27years, and witnessed the shedding of more than a few trains by the various brands of the NSW railways, where they limited seats/sleepers in all country trains with ticket sales limited to each station, and if all tickets were sold, unless passengers were prepared to drive to the next station that had seat/tickets available which were turn off's for most.

Thatis but one example of how the trains were white anted.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
Given that there are very few stations along the route, I am blowed if there is any real reason to have a full set, no matter how many carriages run empty from Bathurst to Dubbo, its actually bad enough that the bullet has to run to Lithgow empty and stable, then run empty to Bx to run back to Sydney.

Surelly the sets when running empty should make seats available for passengers in both directions, it would not cost any more, in fact the few dollars earnt for the runs is better than not having any revenue from the trip.  How long does it take the bullet to run empty to Lithgow, compared to Orange?   also the extra time to Dubbo?

In the end politics for the Nationals won out, yet for little cost the old facilities at Bathurst could have been rebuilt for servicing the trains, that of course does not make a lot of sense though, as the Nationals also have the seat of Bathurst in their hands, but which polly has the most clout, &/or council.

The bullet doesn't actually run empty from lithgow to bathurst in the morning and vice versa in the evening. There is a 3.42am and a 6.04am service in the morning running lithgow to bathurst that form the bullets.
simstrain
Yes, they are run as passenger services, but how many actually use them?  The Moss Vale to Goulburn and return placement services seldom have passengers.  Not very efficient at all.  Lots of "virtually" dead running.  What about the Scone/Dungog and return placement services too?
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
As ably demonstrated by others the Momentum Contract and politically motivated press releases are full of spin.  The numbers of carriages being replaced is spot on.  However when you break this down into sets the real numbers become apparent.  XPT and Xplorer sets are virtually identical, no problems.  The misleading information relates to the Endeavour set replacements.  There are only a maximum of 10 sets to be provided under the Momentum Contract.  This is a total of four sets short.  If one of the ten is stabled at Dubbo then this will then be 5 sets short.  RRA have been trying for years to get a clear answer on how this shortfall is to be addressed.  We are still waiting for a definitive answer.  I am glad that I am not holding my breath.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Given that there are very few stations along the route, I am blowed if there is any real reason to have a full set, no matter how many carriages run empty from Bathurst to Dubbo, its actually bad enough that the bullet has to run to Lithgow empty and stable, then run empty to Bx to run back to Sydney.

Surelly the sets when running empty should make seats available for passengers in both directions, it would not cost any more, in fact the few dollars earnt for the runs is better than not having any revenue from the trip.  How long does it take the bullet to run empty to Lithgow, compared to Orange?   also the extra time to Dubbo?

In the end politics for the Nationals won out, yet for little cost the old facilities at Bathurst could have been rebuilt for servicing the trains, that of course does not make a lot of sense though, as the Nationals also have the seat of Bathurst in their hands, but which polly has the most clout, &/or council.

The bullet doesn't actually run empty from lithgow to bathurst in the morning and vice versa in the evening. There is a 3.42am and a 6.04am service in the morning running lithgow to bathurst that form the bullets.
Thanks Sims

I was going on the original TT, when the bullet was first introduced and it was at that time, an empty car set for it to Bx & return.

Thing is, that the service could still work to Orange and stable for an early departure back.  The other aspect is what I said re the Dubbo empty cars running, if the TT's were arranged in such a way whereby they ran to Dubbo, with passengers in them rather than empty, same on return.  How many would use the service is an unknown at this point of time, I worked on the railways as an engineman for 27years, and witnessed the shedding of more than a few trains by the various brands of the NSW railways, where they limited seats/sleepers in all country trains with ticket sales limited to each station, and if all tickets were sold, unless passengers were prepared to drive to the next station that had seat/tickets available which were turn off's for most.

Thatis but one example of how the trains were white anted.
a6et
I agree that it would make sense to extend the Bathurst Bullet service to and from Orange, and it would be more likely to have passengers than shuttling back to and from Lithgow.

Part of the problem is the rostering of staff for an extended Orange service, with which you may no doubt be acquainted with.  My nephew's brother-in-law was a driver in the days of the original single Bullet service and he lived and was based in Lithgow.  He drove V-sets to and from Sydney and also worked the Bullet service, which then ran empty from Lithgow to Bathurst for the morning service from Bathurst to Sydney and vice versa in the evening. He only worked the return morning service from Lithgow to Bathurst and back and another driver (and presumably guard) took over from Lithgow to Sydney.  The same pattern was repeated for the afternoon/evening return service.

There are obviously no staff based in Orange, so that would make it problematic in stabling overnight and having sufficient staff on standby in case of illness etc.  Based on the current timetable,  in rounded figures it's approximately 70 mins from Bathurst to both Lithgow and Orange.  Orange to Dubbo is about another 1 hr 45 mins.  Bathurst is part of the Intercity network, whereas Orange is part of the Regional network, so it would depend on which class of train would be required for Orange, i.e. Intercity or Regional.  A trip from Bathurst to Dubbo for stabling would be approximately 3 hrs each way, which seems excessive if done on a daily basis, rather than say once a fortnight or whatever is required for major maintenance.

I've just read in this month's edition of Railway Digest that a new stabling facility has been provided at Narrabri for the Moree Xplorer, utilising an existing goods siding.  It will allow for stabling and servicing while the Narrabri to Moree line is closed for reconstruction as part of the Inland Rail project.  A photo shows the fenced off facility with Xplorer cars EA 2508 and EC2528, which coincidently just happen to be the converted Endeavour cars.

I don't see why they couldn't provide a similar facility at Bathurst, which would allow staff to travel more quickly between Lithgow and Bathurst which is only about 45 mins by road.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
As ably demonstrated by others the Momentum Contract and politically motivated press releases are full of spin.  The numbers of carriages being replaced is spot on.  However when you break this down into sets the real numbers become apparent.  XPT and Xplorer sets are virtually identical, no problems.  The misleading information relates to the Endeavour set replacements.  There are only a maximum of 10 sets to be provided under the Momentum Contract.  This is a total of four sets short.  If one of the ten is stabled at Dubbo then this will then be 5 sets short.  RRA have been trying for years to get a clear answer on how this shortfall is to be addressed.  We are still waiting for a definitive answer.  I am glad that I am not holding my breath.
c3526blue
I too am somewhat perplexed at how the Endeavour replacement sets will be allocated.

I've done a little more investigation of the fleet makeup and it currently consists of 111 cars (excluding XPT power cars).  There are 60 XPT cars, 23 XPL cars and 28 END cars.  The new fleet consists of 117 cars, an increase of 6, with 60 Long Regional (XPT), 27 Short Regional (XPL) and 30 Short Intercity (END).  It appears that there will be an additional 4xSR (XPL) and 2xSI (END) cars compared with the existing fleet.  The XPT replacement cars are like for like; the replacement XPL cars are made up of 9x3 car sets compared with the current 7x3 car and 1x2 car sets, the latter being the converted END set. What would appear to be an additional 4 cars for the XPL replacement is bringing the current 2 car set up to 3 cars plus an additional 3 car set, bringing it up to a total of 9 sets.

Looking at the current END fleet, as far as I can ascertain there are 10x2 car sets in operation.  I could be wrong, but my estimate is that there is 1 set on the SCO Line (Kiama to Bomaderry); 5 sets on the SHL Line (Goulburn to ST x 2 plus Moss Vale to Campbelltown x 3); 2 sets for the Bathurst Bullet and 2 sets on the Hunter Line.  One of the Bathurst Bullet sets will be replaced by a Long Regional (XPT) set which will form a morning service from Dubbo and evening return from Sydney, while the current XPT service will be replaced by a Short Regional (XPL) set.  All existing END services will be upgraded from 2 to 3 car sets and presumably the Goulburn through service from 4 to 6 cars.  That still leaves a few END sets over, excluding maintenance, or have I missed something?
  a6et Minister for Railways

Given that there are very few stations along the route, I am blowed if there is any real reason to have a full set, no matter how many carriages run empty from Bathurst to Dubbo, its actually bad enough that the bullet has to run to Lithgow empty and stable, then run empty to Bx to run back to Sydney.

Surelly the sets when running empty should make seats available for passengers in both directions, it would not cost any more, in fact the few dollars earnt for the runs is better than not having any revenue from the trip.  How long does it take the bullet to run empty to Lithgow, compared to Orange?   also the extra time to Dubbo?

In the end politics for the Nationals won out, yet for little cost the old facilities at Bathurst could have been rebuilt for servicing the trains, that of course does not make a lot of sense though, as the Nationals also have the seat of Bathurst in their hands, but which polly has the most clout, &/or council.

The bullet doesn't actually run empty from lithgow to bathurst in the morning and vice versa in the evening. There is a 3.42am and a 6.04am service in the morning running lithgow to bathurst that form the bullets.
Thanks Sims

I was going on the original TT, when the bullet was first introduced and it was at that time, an empty car set for it to Bx & return.

Thing is, that the service could still work to Orange and stable for an early departure back.  The other aspect is what I said re the Dubbo empty cars running, if the TT's were arranged in such a way whereby they ran to Dubbo, with passengers in them rather than empty, same on return.  How many would use the service is an unknown at this point of time, I worked on the railways as an engineman for 27years, and witnessed the shedding of more than a few trains by the various brands of the NSW railways, where they limited seats/sleepers in all country trains with ticket sales limited to each station, and if all tickets were sold, unless passengers were prepared to drive to the next station that had seat/tickets available which were turn off's for most.

Thatis but one example of how the trains were white anted.
I agree that it would make sense to extend the Bathurst Bullet service to and from Orange, and it would be more likely to have passengers than shuttling back to and from Lithgow.

Part of the problem is the rostering of staff for an extended Orange service, with which you may no doubt be acquainted with.  My nephew's brother-in-law was a driver in the days of the original single Bullet service and he lived and was based in Lithgow.  He drove V-sets to and from Sydney and also worked the Bullet service, which then ran empty from Lithgow to Bathurst for the morning service from Bathurst to Sydney and vice versa in the evening. He only worked the return morning service from Lithgow to Bathurst and back and another driver (and presumably guard) took over from Lithgow to Sydney.  The same pattern was repeated for the afternoon/evening return service.

There are obviously no staff based in Orange, so that would make it problematic in stabling overnight and having sufficient staff on standby in case of illness etc.  Based on the current timetable,  in rounded figures it's approximately 70 mins from Bathurst to both Lithgow and Orange.  Orange to Dubbo is about another 1 hr 45 mins.  Bathurst is part of the Intercity network, whereas Orange is part of the Regional network, so it would depend on which class of train would be required for Orange, i.e. Intercity or Regional.  A trip from Bathurst to Dubbo for stabling would be approximately 3 hrs each way, which seems excessive if done on a daily basis, rather than say once a fortnight or whatever is required for major maintenance.

I've just read in this month's edition of Railway Digest that a new stabling facility has been provided at Narrabri for the Moree Xplorer, utilising an existing goods siding.  It will allow for stabling and servicing while the Narrabri to Moree line is closed for reconstruction as part of the Inland Rail project.  A photo shows the fenced off facility with Xplorer cars EA 2508 and EC2528, which coincidently just happen to be the converted Endeavour cars.

I don't see why they couldn't provide a similar facility at Bathurst, which would allow staff to travel more quickly between Lithgow and Bathurst which is only about 45 mins by road.
Transtopic
The way the bullet is rostered, and the working of it, is very much performed in similar ways to how the old system of crews being relieved by a new crew and driven to/from their depot to relieve a long hour case, in all depots there were cars that were assigned to that work and designated as call trucks, a depot labourer would drive the crew to & from where the relief/change over took place.  When no depot person was available to drive the vehicle a taxi was used.  Reasoning behind that was most trips had crews that had worked long hours and then were required to get off the loco and drive the call truck was deemed unsafe owing to fatique and to concentrate on driving was dangerous.

Later the call vehicles were done away with and many of the current operators require the crews to drive vehicles to/from their locations, I understand it works in conjunction with the control operation of trains, and there are set change over points for that sort of operation.

I dont know if the one crew working the down evening service from Lithgow to Bx and then run empty back to Lithgow would be working that return service or not the following morning (but it would seem to me and I do not know the working arrangements though) if it would be a pleasant job owing to the layover at Lithgow, in what would be likely a broken shift.  What makes me wonder and the time difference between taking the set empty both ways, or stable at Bx and drive to Lithgow and return would be much of a muchness, time wise but also the fuel for the train or car.

I am not surprised at the likely aspect that Orange and probably other stop stations are not manned any more, and given the one train service each way per day is really no incentive for extra services, in many locations though such as Blayney, Orange, Wellington, why would it not be possible to stop in both directions when the new sets arrive, and become a paying service rather than running empty both directions for the complete journey. They may not get huge numbers but if promoted properly why not?  If the stations are unattended then passengers could get an on board ticket from the guard.  A food vending machine would also help on such services, attached in what would be the buffet car.
  303gunner Junior Train Controller

The Bullet does not run as an Empty between Lithgow and Bathurst, all trips are passenger services, albeit lightly patronised, but they are services.

Orange station IS still manned by Station Staff (as is Bathurst Station), but only on Day and PM shift for the XPT and Coaches, not 24/7, and there are no Train Crew there or crewing facilities. The only NSWT crew depots are Dubbo or Lithgow. Dubbo is XPT crew only and Lithgow END/Electric Interurban. The crews do not interchange work, as they are qualified for different trains.

The Interurban crews are not solely working the Endeavours, they also crew electric Interurbans, often in the same shift. They cannot work the evening down service from Lth-Bhs-Lth and then work the outgoing service the following morning as it is well over 12hrs, and Interurban crews do not have split shifts, its all continuous time.

The Bullets only have sufficient fuel capacity for Syd-Bhs-Lth-Bhs-Syd or Syd-Oag-Syd. They are fuelled in Sydney and there are currently no other fuel facilites for them on the West. If they start to do daily shuttle runs Lth-Oag-Lth-Oag-Lth, there will need to be fuel facilities built, or they will have to run empty to Dubbo to the new Maintenance Centre.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The Bullet does not run as an Empty between Lithgow and Bathurst, all trips are passenger services, albeit lightly patronised, but they are services.

Orange station IS still manned by Station Staff (as is Bathurst Station), but only on Day and PM shift for the XPT and Coaches, not 24/7, and there are no Train Crew there or crewing facilities. The only NSWT crew depots are Dubbo or Lithgow. Dubbo is XPT crew only and Lithgow END/Electric Interurban. The crews do not interchange work, as they are qualified for different trains.

The Interurban crews are not solely working the Endeavours, they also crew electric Interurbans, often in the same shift. They cannot work the evening down service from Lth-Bhs-Lth and then work the outgoing service the following morning as it is well over 12hrs, and Interurban crews do not have split shifts, its all continuous time.

The Bullets only have sufficient fuel capacity for Syd-Bhs-Lth-Bhs-Syd or Syd-Oag-Syd. They are fuelled in Sydney and there are currently no other fuel facilites for them on the West. If they start to do daily shuttle runs Lth-Oag-Lth-Oag-Lth, there will need to be fuel facilities built, or they will have to run empty to Dubbo to the new Maintenance Centre.
303gunner
It's already been acknowledged that the Bullet no longer runs empty between Lithgow and Bathurst and vice versa as it once did.

My reference to no staff being at Orange was in respect of train crew and not station staff.  As the Dubbo XPT is occasionally worked by Xplorers, I would imagine that the crews would be capable of operating both train types.  I never said that the Interurban crews solely worked the Endeavours.  They worked both.  My understanding is that the crew on the Down evening Bullet service changed at Lithgow, with the new crew working the return service from Lithgow to Bathurst and doing the same in the morning for the Up service to Sydney. It was obviously a broken shift.

I'd still like to hear from anyone who can confirm what the current operational allocation is for the Endeavour sets.
  scott4570 Chief Train Controller

Currently, the Timetable calls for the following 2car Endeavour Sets, as follows:-
South Coast Line: 1
Southern Line: 6
Western Line: 2
Hunter Line: 2

In respect to the 2car Hunter Sets, currently the Timetable calls for 5 sets to work the Hunter Line.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Currently, the Timetable calls for the following 2car Endeavour Sets, as follows:-
South Coast Line: 1
Southern Line: 6
Western Line: 2
Hunter Line: 2

In respect to the 2car Hunter Sets, currently the Timetable calls for 5 sets to work the Hunter Line.
scott4570

I was going to add my 2c worth for the SHL, my memory of it was 6 sets (having once worked out the entire rotation), but it probably could be done with 5.

I also thought - until anytrip cleared it up for me - some of the hunter services may have been 4 car services, but it seems that's not the case.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

All this talk and need to reduce carbon output is it likely electrification will be delivered between Sydney and Canberra to use green energy ?
freightgate
I think they are more likely to put a prototype hydrogen-powered road coach on the highway and cancel the remaining (diesel-powered) train services and say they are 'greening transport'. Smile

There is a particular 'fear' of overhead wires all around. You can bet any proposal to put overhead wires up will be met with screens from pretend 'greens' about the visual intrusion of the overhead lines. Freight operators will be going on about how the wires get in the way of double-stack container trains and they will be worried they will be forced to use electric traction on their freight trains instead of diesel traction they can use anywhere and have their choice of fuel providers.
  a6et Minister for Railways

All this talk and need to reduce carbon output is it likely electrification will be delivered between Sydney and Canberra to use green energy ?
I think they are more likely to put a prototype hydrogen-powered road coach on the highway and cancel the remaining (diesel-powered) train services and say they are 'greening transport'. Smile

There is a particular 'fear' of overhead wires all around. You can bet any proposal to put overhead wires up will be met with screens from pretend 'greens' about the visual intrusion of the overhead lines. Freight operators will be going on about how the wires get in the way of double-stack container trains and they will be worried they will be forced to use electric traction on their freight trains instead of diesel traction they can use anywhere and have their choice of fuel providers.
Matthew
Where is the fear to be found?

If one looked overseas, one would find that almost all of Europe has primarilly Overhead wiring for their services, a lot of them also use only 2 cars on certain services,  Russia has a very big investment in overhead wired lines, China is/has built new lines for higher/high speed trains for commuters, also much of their freight services are now run with electric loco's.

Overhead wires do not have to be that bad as far as design is concerned, there are more single poles that have quite unintrusive arms that hold the wires up, unlike what we see in NSW.

As for the Canberra services, and with discussion also taking place regarding the new country fleet having both diesel and electric power abilities, the biggest benefit into the future is as not just a few push that a new line built for the Short South to Moss Vale with the overhead in operation would benefit that region more than for Canberra, the cost to wire the section south of Moss Vale would be a great money eater, although getting to Goulburn under the wires would perhaps bring custom on that section.

To then go to the O/head to Canberra, would hardly seem to be financially viable for some time to come, the only real way for that line would be to have the trains working with dual power capacities.

The other aspect is you mention double stracking of containers, IF, that ever happens into the Sydney basin it would mean at best that a hub, such as the Moorebank one would need to be serviced on a line that does not have the overhead in place.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
All this talk and need to reduce carbon output is it likely electrification will be delivered between Sydney and Canberra to use green energy ?
I think they are more likely to put a prototype hydrogen-powered road coach on the highway and cancel the remaining (diesel-powered) train services and say they are 'greening transport'. Smile

There is a particular 'fear' of overhead wires all around. You can bet any proposal to put overhead wires up will be met with screens from pretend 'greens' about the visual intrusion of the overhead lines. Freight operators will be going on about how the wires get in the way of double-stack container trains and they will be worried they will be forced to use electric traction on their freight trains instead of diesel traction they can use anywhere and have their choice of fuel providers.
Matthew
No fear of OH, juts old technology approach for low density areas. YEs OH is also more complex for DS freights so combining the two issues together and looking at modern technology there are clearly alternatives that will stack up.

Electric traction via OH for freight services on the southern main will never stack up, even if you tripled the number of trains, again alt technology will be applied likely H2 or more likely a combination of H2 and battery with battery providing surger / peaking power.

Your comments on busitution is I assume a joke. This was something the mostly left wing supporters in this group stated would happen for nearly 10 years as the XPT's retirement date drew closer.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Double stack is never going to make it in to Sydney but I do believe the reason we won't be seeing the overhead south of macarthur on the ARTC portion of the track is for exactly that reason. If a new bypass of picton following the hume highway from say douglas park to bargo or further south then it would free up the old line to electrify to Picton at the very least as that line could be handed back to sydney trains.

While the track is in the hands of the ARTC it will never be electrified and so this hybrid option is all the nsw trainlink has for the time being.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
All this talk and need to reduce carbon output is it likely electrification will be delivered between Sydney and Canberra to use green energy ?
I think they are more likely to put a prototype hydrogen-powered road coach on the highway and cancel the remaining (diesel-powered) train services and say they are 'greening transport'. Smile

There is a particular 'fear' of overhead wires all around. You can bet any proposal to put overhead wires up will be met with screens from pretend 'greens' about the visual intrusion of the overhead lines. Freight operators will be going on about how the wires get in the way of double-stack container trains and they will be worried they will be forced to use electric traction on their freight trains instead of diesel traction they can use anywhere and have their choice of fuel providers.
Where is the fear to be found?

If one looked overseas, one would find that almost all of Europe has primarilly Overhead wiring for their services, a lot of them also use only 2 cars on certain services,  Russia has a very big investment in overhead wired lines, China is/has built new lines for higher/high speed trains for commuters, also much of their freight services are now run with electric loco's.

Overhead wires do not have to be that bad as far as design is concerned, there are more single poles that have quite unintrusive arms that hold the wires up, unlike what we see in NSW.

As for the Canberra services, and with discussion also taking place regarding the new country fleet having both diesel and electric power abilities, the biggest benefit into the future is as not just a few push that a new line built for the Short South to Moss Vale with the overhead in operation would benefit that region more than for Canberra, the cost to wire the section south of Moss Vale would be a great money eater, although getting to Goulburn under the wires would perhaps bring custom on that section.

To then go to the O/head to Canberra, would hardly seem to be financially viable for some time to come, the only real way for that line would be to have the trains working with dual power capacities.

The other aspect is you mention double stracking of containers, IF, that ever happens into the Sydney basin it would mean at best that a hub, such as the Moorebank one would need to be serviced on a line that does not have the overhead in place.
a6et

Yep, EU and other had train frequency to justify, we don't. OH will never be installed on the south main, maybe if the extend suburb services a station or two but that's pretty much it.

I expect when the current Qld Electric Tilt train is retired around 2035, the Qld North coast line will also be de-wired with any new trains using non diesel and non overhead technologies.
  Matthew Chief Train Controller

Where is the fear to be found?

a6et


In any community alongside a rail corridor.

I have a relative that (used to, she sold out) live alongside the railway near Kiama. All her neighbours spend much time and effort fighting the Kiama electrification.

Among other things floated were bi-mode trains that could go past the houses with no wires. Apparently, the stink of diesel was ok, as long as their ocean views were untouched.

A 25kv overhead electrification will be much more energy-efficient than using H2 powered locomotives. Hydrogen is expensive to manufacture and difficult to store. Generator to point of use it's very hard to beat the simple overhead contact system as a way of getting power from where it's made to where it's needed.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

I can't agree more.  Everywhere in the world people protest against electro-magnetic radiation, be it railway electrification, maglev, or mobile signal relays.  It's a rumour but is able to drive down the property price.

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