Launceston and North-East Railway forge ahead in tourist train quest

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 29 Apr 2017 08:33
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
REPOST FROM OTHER THREAD  https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2081052.htm#2081052
BY REQUEST OF Dthead

for those interested
reports (the one by raylink)

http://www.stategrowth.tas.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/000...


here is the report from Linqage international

Linqage_International_NE_Rail_Assessment.pdf

here is the one from infrastructure Tasmania
ITas_review_of_Launceston_and_North_East_Railway_Proposal_-_October_2017.pdf



EDIT
No idea why its coming out like that

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  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Thread Resurrection time
They now have a corridor lease from Lilydale to Turners Marsh and are moving towards getting accreditation.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thread Resurrection time
They now have a corridor lease from Lilydale to Turners Marsh and are moving towards getting accreditation.
Dangersdan707
Will be nice to see!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Thread Resurrection time
They now have a corridor lease from Lilydale to Turners Marsh and are moving towards getting accreditation.
Will be nice to see!
RTT_Rules

Reportedly the best scenic parts of the line are down from Wyena?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thread Resurrection time
They now have a corridor lease from Lilydale to Turners Marsh and are moving towards getting accreditation.
Will be nice to see!

Reportedly the best scenic parts of the line are down from Wyena?
bevans
Trying to remember my trip in 1995-6, but I think I would have to agree although its fairly short, although the section off from the main line for the first 5 or  so km via Turner's Marsh isn't too bad either.

Lebrina to Wyeena there is a gorge following Denison River with no road access, only rail. On the trip I did we saw a loco that had long derailed and they just scavenged off what they could from a rail mounted crane. Frames and other big bits left behind.

I think the terminus given by the govt is Lillydale, around 25-30km by rail from Launceston, so the Heritage rail operation will not go through the gorge, however I very much doubt they would ever succeed if they tried to retain operation to Wyeena and the gorge is probably better appreciated from bike or foot, not a train and there are other things near by rail access doesn't quite offer the same as cycle/foot access.


I know we will disagree on this, but I think they have the right length of track to make it work.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
Thread Resurrection time
They now have a corridor lease from Lilydale to Turners Marsh and are moving towards getting accreditation.
Will be nice to see!

Reportedly the best scenic parts of the line are down from Wyena?
Trying to remember my trip in 1995-6, but I think I would have to agree although its fairly short, although the section off from the main line for the first 5 or  so km via Turner's Marsh isn't too bad either.

Lebrina to Wyeena there is a gorge following Denison River with no road access, only rail. On the trip I did we saw a loco that had long derailed and they just scavenged off what they could from a rail mounted crane. Frames and other big bits left behind.

I think the terminus given by the govt is Lillydale, around 25-30km by rail from Launceston, so the Heritage rail operation will not go through the gorge, however I very much doubt they would ever succeed if they tried to retain operation to Wyeena and the gorge is probably better appreciated from bike or foot, not a train and there are other things near by rail access doesn't quite offer the same as cycle/foot access.


I know we will disagree on this, but I think they have the right length of track to make it work.
RTT_Rules
It will be interesting to see how it develops. The section between Wyena and Lilydale will likely be abandoned for the time being, as although the Govt support Dorset Council's proposal for a "Rail Trail" to Lilydale from Scottsdale, the section between Wyena and Lilydale is Launceston Council land, thus Dorset Council have no authority to touch that part of the corridor and Launceston Council have never supported the "Rail Trail".

Also, it will be interesting to see how Dorset go trying to lift the track, even in their section (Wyena - Scottsdale) as the neighbouring landowners are furiously opposed to the Rail Trail and will blockade any attempt to lift the track.

Some years ago an attempt was made to turn the abandoned Mole Creek formation into the very first "Rail Trail". Landowner opposition killed that attempt. When northern Tasmanian landowners get riled up, play them "Deliverance" banjos!!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It will be interesting to see how it develops. The section between Wyena and Lilydale will likely be abandoned for the time being, as although the Govt support Dorset Council's proposal for a "Rail Trail" to Lilydale from Scottsdale, the section between Wyena and Lilydale is Launceston Council land, thus Dorset Council have no authority to touch that part of the corridor and Launceston Council have never supported the "Rail Trail".

Also, it will be interesting to see how Dorset go trying to lift the track, even in their section (Wyena - Scottsdale) as the neighbouring landowners are furiously opposed to the Rail Trail and will blockade any attempt to lift the track.

Some years ago an attempt was made to turn the abandoned Mole Creek formation into the very first "Rail Trail". Landowner opposition killed that attempt. When northern Tasmanian landowners get riled up, play them "Deliverance" banjos!!
12CSVT
Interesting and thanks.

I think the bad old days of farmers physically stopping govt contractors on govt land is unlikely to cause much of an issue. The council just calls the police and then problem solved, a few people imprisoned and a few bits of gear impounded, back to work. We all know the Famers have no interest what so ever seeing trains run again, they just want the land to be surrendered to them free of charge and I suspect the bulk of the people will see this too.

I think it all gets down to how hard they council and state want this and willing to push it.

Mole Creek Line, its location was nice, but personal opinion not ideal for tourist as too short and Deloraine a bit too out of the way and insufficient local demand.  The timing was also not ideal as back in the 1980's, rail trails were still not an in thing, unlike today.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
It will be interesting to see how it develops. The section between Wyena and Lilydale will likely be abandoned for the time being, as although the Govt support Dorset Council's proposal for a "Rail Trail" to Lilydale from Scottsdale, the section between Wyena and Lilydale is Launceston Council land, thus Dorset Council have no authority to touch that part of the corridor and Launceston Council have never supported the "Rail Trail".

Also, it will be interesting to see how Dorset go trying to lift the track, even in their section (Wyena - Scottsdale) as the neighbouring landowners are furiously opposed to the Rail Trail and will blockade any attempt to lift the track.

Some years ago an attempt was made to turn the abandoned Mole Creek formation into the very first "Rail Trail". Landowner opposition killed that attempt. When northern Tasmanian landowners get riled up, play them "Deliverance" banjos!!
Interesting and thanks.

I think the bad old days of farmers physically stopping govt contractors on govt land is unlikely to cause much of an issue. The council just calls the police and then problem solved, a few people imprisoned and a few bits of gear impounded, back to work. We all know the Famers have no interest what so ever seeing trains run again, they just want the land to be surrendered to them free of charge and I suspect the bulk of the people will see this too.

I think it all gets down to how hard they council and state want this and willing to push it.
RTT_Rules
This is Tasmania. The Greens have set the Gold standard in physically stopping projects they are opposed to. I'm sure the NERAF (North East Residents & Farmers) will have carefully studied their tactics and have no problem in upping the ante. The police will come at the Council's call only so many times. Eventually the councils contractors being routinely threatened with shotguns will tell the council, stuff this, we are gone......
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
This is Tasmania. The Greens have set the Gold standard in physically stopping projects they are opposed to. I'm sure the NERAF (North East Residents & Farmers) will have carefully studied their tactics and have no problem in upping the ante. The police will come at the Council's call only so many times. Eventually the councils contractors being routinely threatened with shotguns will tell the council, stuff this, we are gone......
12CSVT
Police backing away at people holding shot guns at them, mmm, sounds too cowboy era for 2020, hell if they tried to booby trap and cause physical harm to the cops the farmers would likely be treated under the terrorism Act, bum bum, no way back from that one. I never heard the Greens pulling guns on the police during the west coast issues (I worked there).

I really have to wonder how much their resolve is and looking at their social media it would seem low. I've seen the anti rail trail signs in the Batlow / Tumbarumba area too. Then amazingly at Gundagai they have the opposite signs.

Anyway, I don't embrace the loss of this line, but most of us know there is no sustainable outcome and the so called business case would likely have more holes in it than the Titanic, plenty of examples around the country already on how hard it is. If they can make a sustainable go of the line to Lillydale, then they will have done well. If they move fast, then they may even get the section to Wyeena if they can prove a viable oepration. Good luck to them.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
This is Tasmania. The Greens have set the Gold standard in physically stopping projects they are opposed to. I'm sure the NERAF (North East Residents & Farmers) will have carefully studied their tactics and have no problem in upping the ante. The police will come at the Council's call only so many times. Eventually the councils contractors being routinely threatened with shotguns will tell the council, stuff this, we are gone......
Police backing away at people holding shot guns at them, mmm, sounds too cowboy era for 2020, hell if they tried to booby trap and cause physical harm to the cops the farmers would likely be treated under the terrorism Act, bum bum, no way back from that one. I never heard the Greens pulling guns on the police during the west coast issues (I worked there).
RTT_Rules
No I said the contractors trying to lift the line would cop the resistance, not the police. Everything would be sweet when the police showed up - probably cups of tea and friendly greetings between the local cops and the farmers, like old friends on first name terms, with the police being convinced of no trouble here...then as soon as the police leave......Look out! The N.E. locals are a lot smarter than the brain-dead Greens and know when to be good law abiding citizens and when to stand up for their land and rights.  I dont think the council will be able to afford giving the contractors a full-time police guard, do you?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
No I said the contractors trying to lift the line would cop the resistance.
12CSVT
The reality Is some will moan and groan at the start, than quickly realize they can't do anything about It other than just watch the Government do what they wish.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
No I said the contractors trying to lift the line would cop the resistance, not the police. Everything would be sweet when the police showed up - probably cups of tea and friendly greetings between the local cops and the farmers, like old friends on first name terms, with the police being convinced of no trouble here...then as soon as the police leave......Look out! The N.E. locals are a lot smarter than the brain-dead Greens and know when to be good law abiding citizens and when to stand up for their land and rights.  I dont think the council will be able to afford giving the contractors a full-time police guard, do you?
Not sure on the way it all works, but I understand that if you are doing your work legally and others interfere, then police if not there will act on information given and arrest and charge later if needed. Anyone nominated casing problems would be given a police order to cease and desist. Failing that they would be arrested and then likely given a court order to stay X many metres away. Today they even get you under OHS laws, not just trespassing as many a Greenie has found out.

Certainly anyone pulling out a weapon of any sorts, especially a firearm would be arrested (its 2020, there is always a camera pointing at you). Are the farmers or non-farmers up there really willing to risk a firearm offence against them for a railway track they barely knew even existed? Can be very career limiting. If the gun was legal, then they would risk loosing their license.

Q, how many of these farmers were there with their guns opposing ripping up the previous extension of the NE line. I lived in L'ton at the time, if I recall correctly few even knew it happened. The lines progressively decline is certainly disappointing.


Anyway, we will continue to agree to disagree. Lets see what actually happens.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
Not sure on the way it all works, but I understand that if you are doing your work legally and others interfere, then police if not there will act on information given and arrest and charge later if needed. Anyone nominated casing problems would be given a police order to cease and desist. Failing that they would be arrested and then likely given a court order to stay X many metres away. Today they even get you under OHS laws, not just trespassing as many a Greenie has found out.

Certainly anyone pulling out a weapon of any sorts, especially a firearm would be arrested (its 2020, there is always a camera pointing at you). Are the farmers or non-farmers up there really willing to risk a firearm offence against them for a railway track they barely knew even existed? Can be very career limiting. If the gun was legal, then they would risk loosing their license.

Q, how many of these farmers were there with their guns opposing ripping up the previous extension of the NE line. I lived in L'ton at the time, if I recall correctly few even knew it happened. The lines progressively decline is certainly disappointing.


Anyway, we will continue to agree to disagree. Lets see what actually happens.
RTT_Rules
The Greens have proven there are ways around everything you stated in your first para. Just ask Bob Brown. Of course, (in reference to council employed contractors) doing work legally will be up for debate, as the farmer's lawyers submit cease and desist orders through the courts followed by years of appeals, etc.

Meanwhile, the police will find things very confusing as no clear 'offender' will be identified as claim and counter claim go back and forth.

By the way the Govts attempt to use OH&S Laws against the Greens backfired spectacularly, as the Greens threatened High Court action after which the the head of Workplace Standards who approved slapping the Greens with the OH&S laws suddenly resigned (in disgrace according to the Greens).

The difference with the removal of the line east of Scottsdale was that it wasn't done specifically for a loathed rail trail and the hard-core breed of farmers west of Scottsdale are a remarkably feisty lot, compared to the lifestyle landowners to the east.

As you said - all of this is speculation until the council does attempt to move in to demolish the track - then yes, we will have to wait and see what happens. I will be getting a big tub of popcorn to watch with. Should be entertaining.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The Greens have proven there are ways around everything you stated in your first para. Just ask Bob Brown. Of course, (in reference to council employed contractors) doing work legally will be up for debate, as the farmer's lawyers submit cease and desist orders through the courts followed by years of appeals, etc.

Meanwhile, the police will find things very confusing as no clear 'offender' will be identified as claim and counter claim go back and forth.

By the way the Govts attempt to use OH&S Laws against the Greens backfired spectacularly, as the Greens threatened High Court action after which the the head of Workplace Standards who approved slapping the Greens with the OH&S laws suddenly resigned (in disgrace according to the Greens).

The difference with the removal of the line east of Scottsdale was that it wasn't done specifically for a loathed rail trail and the hard-core breed of farmers west of Scottsdale are a remarkably feisty lot, compared to the lifestyle landowners to the east.

As you said - all of this is speculation until the council does attempt to move in to demolish the track - then yes, we will have to wait and see what happens. I will be getting a big tub of popcorn to watch with. Should be entertaining.
12CSVT
The difference between the line east and line west of Scotsdale is that the farmers got what they wanted, the land for free. We all know the farmers don't give a rats ar$e if there is a HR or Commercial rail solution, they just want it closed and land given to them for free. Nice to know you are supporting this too!

Don't know of the situations you are referring too, I'm just familiar with a number of protests against industrial sites where greens and unions were slapped with large fines as well as non-approach orders by the courts for interfering with industrial equipment.

As for legal action, the process is simple. You keep raising to a higher court, no work commences until this is complete. Once the High Court has ruled against the protesters and wasted likely millions in taxpayers money, we can all move on with what we know will happen and makes sense, unless you are a greedy farmer who wants govt land for free.

Meanwhile the money wasted by the protesters will be at the expense of getting the Lillydale section up and running as a HR and it will languish again for another 1-2 decades until even this simplified project becomes all too hard and people simply give up.

So
Option 1) Get on with getting trains back to Lillydale knowing that the rail trail is a potential draw card for customers supply as per Otago.

Option 2) F__k around for another decade at least supporting the basic concept of greedy farmers basically getting land for free and still no trains running in our life times, or our childrens to operate even a monthly service.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
The difference between the line east and line west of Scotsdale is that the farmers got what they wanted, the land for free. We all know the farmers don't give a rats ar$e if there is a HR or Commercial rail solution, they just want it closed and land given to them for free. Nice to know you are supporting this too!

Don't know of the situations you are referring too, I'm just familiar with a number of protests against industrial sites where greens and unions were slapped with large fines as well as non-approach orders by the courts for interfering with industrial equipment.

As for legal action, the process is simple. You keep raising to a higher court, no work commences until this is complete. Once the High Court has ruled against the protesters and wasted likely millions in taxpayers money, we can all move on with what we know will happen and makes sense, unless you are a greedy farmer who wants govt land for free.

Meanwhile the money wasted by the protesters will be at the expense of getting the Lillydale section up and running as a HR and it will languish again for another 1-2 decades until even this simplified project becomes all too hard and people simply give up.

So
Option 1) Get on with getting trains back to Lillydale knowing that the rail trail is a potential draw card for customers supply as per Otago.

Option 2) F__k around for another decade at least supporting the basic concept of greedy farmers basically getting land for free and still no trains running in our life times, or our childrens to operate even a monthly service.
RTT_Rules
Firstly the farmers don't want the rail closed, as because of the Strategic Corridors legislation, they can no longer reclaim the land back, so that is a red herring. They simply want their land secured from trespassers such as vandals and farm invading protesters such as Green and Animal Liberation activists who have a proven track record of invading and deliberately sabotaging farmers assets.

Yes, the Greens have been slapped with fines and non-approach orders, but they always manage to appeal away the fines and substitute alternative activists to get around the non-approach orders which only ever tend to be specific to a particular person. Even as an organisation, the Greens (if they are named) have numerous agents from proxy organisations to do their dirty work.  

At least you agree any work on destroying the track will be embargoed whist it drags through the legal process. You cant preempt the likely decision of the High Court though, especially when the farmers QC's bring evidence of the corrupt process through which the council have driven this. The council may even end up getting sacked - especially as buckets and buckets of ratepayers money gets wasted on the defence of the council's outrageous 'boondoggle'.

As for the pending dispute between the farmers and the council impacting on the currently conceded length of track between Coldwater Creek Jctn and Lilydale - as LNER and NERAF are separate organisations, LNER will concentrate on getting the track they have up and running, playing no part in the NERAF dispute with the council. Yes LNER may benefit from any victories the farmers achieve, but as the deed of granting the track has already been made and the lease being drawn up and furthermore, as LNER's current allocated track lease isn't even in Dorset Council's jurisdiction, any ongoing ruckus between the farmers and Dorset Council will have absolutely no bearing on LNER progressing their end of the  heritage rail project. The only potential down side is funding that might have been available from the farmers (who have very deep pockets, such as Robert Raven's, owner of Bridestowe Lavender farm - one of the, if not the biggest attractions in the north-east) to support the railway, will likely instead get tied up in the legal battle with the council - which will last until the endless drain on ratepayers funds result in the Dorset ratepayers finally scream "Enough!" and either vote out the current council ruling clique or successfully appeal to the State Govt to sack the council for financial misappropriation.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Firstly the farmers don't want the rail closed, as because of the Strategic Corridors legislation, they can no longer reclaim the land back, so that is a red herring. They simply want their land secured from trespassers such as vandals and farm invading protesters such as Green and Animal Liberation activists who have a proven track record of invading and deliberately sabotaging farmers assets.
12CSVT


Yes, but they get it by default. The land is basically unsalable as the only buyers would be the land owners either side and if the same farm then no competition. The "strategic corridor" status is just so the govt can appease the pro-rail side saying if rail is viable in the future for something they have a corridor. In reality we all know this will unlikely ever happen short of a large mine or some very major industrial application and in both cases large portions of the existing corridor would be by-passed. I used to work alongside a former NW TGR train driver and he said the section beyond Gladstone was useless for heavy logs, claimed the railway wanted them road hauled further west for rail and even the section from Scottsdale to Gladstone was still pretty average due to alignment and undulations. Track didn't help either. The mostly likely use of the corridor is for pipe lines.

The link with animal libs, yeah well that can happy just as easily on a open rail line or from a road.

As for vandals, I think we are over estimating the energy of the average vandal to travel km's up a narrow corridor on a bike to break or paint a farm fence?. Experience from other locations likely doesn't reflect such concerns especially what I've read from Otago or even existing in Tas and Aust.


Yes, the Greens have been slapped with fines and non-approach orders, but they always manage to appeal away the fines and substitute alternative activists to get around the non-approach orders which only ever tend to be specific to a particular person. Even as an organisation, the Greens (if they are named) have numerous agents from proxy organisations to do their dirty work.  

At least you agree any work on destroying the track will be embargoed whist it drags through the legal process. You cant preempt the likely decision of the High Court though, especially when the farmers QC's bring evidence of the corrupt process through which the council have driven this. The council may even end up getting sacked - especially as buckets and buckets of ratepayers money gets wasted on the defence of the council's outrageous 'boondoggle'.
12CSVT


I used to live 1km from the Shale Oil Project Project in Gladstone, I've seen the Greens tactics first hand and how far they got and I would say a mine for oil shale is far higher up the tree on priorities that converting an unused railway to a bike/walking track something the average green would likely be first to use.

Legal challenge, yeah well who is wiling to fund this? And what is their LEGAL argument against the govt converting an unused rail asset they own to a public asset?

If the farmers do have the money to fund a legal challenge, it will be the last time I donate anything to farmers in crisis.


As for the pending dispute between the farmers and the council impacting on the currently conceded length of track between Coldwater Creek Jctn and Lilydale - as LNER and NERAF are separate organisations, LNER will concentrate on getting the track they have up and running, playing no part in the NERAF dispute with the council. Yes LNER may benefit from any victories the farmers achieve, but as the deed of granting the track has already been made and the lease being drawn up and furthermore, as LNER's current allocated track lease isn't even in Dorset Council's jurisdiction, any ongoing ruckus between the farmers and Dorset Council will have absolutely no bearing on LNER progressing their end of the  heritage rail project. The only potential down side is funding that might have been available from the farmers (who have very deep pockets, such as Robert Raven's, owner of Bridestowe Lavender farm - one of the, if not the biggest attractions in the north-east) to support the railway, will likely instead get tied up in the legal battle with the council - which will last until the endless drain on ratepayers funds result in the Dorset ratepayers finally scream "Enough!" and either vote out the current council ruling clique or successfully appeal to the State Govt to sack the council for financial misappropriation.
12CSVT


The local council is already made up of community representatives and the project has been assessed and approved by the govt actually made the final decision, not the council.

The problem with the project to return HR to Scotsdale which I support if it was viable, but it is very much unlikely.

Lets look at one of the closer example, Taiera Gorge.
While the retain the line to Middlemarch, around 60km, they actually only operate daily to Pukerangie, 45km or ~2h up, ~2h back. The line to MiddleMarch is seasonal and then only 2 days per week and the backbone of the users for the train to Middle March are actually the rail trail users. Does the link between services to Middle March and Otaga trail usage not say something? ie few people have the money and/or the time to spend all day return on a HR. The Pukerangie return fare is NZ$119. Say $100 Aussie to call it even. Its a bloody expensive family day out, especially on holiday. Having spent all day return going to Scotsdale by steamer I can appreciate this.

I can tell you now my train loving wife would not be up for an all day trip that costs north of $400 for family, but cheaper half day trip she would sign up too especially if on a 7-10 day holiday. However she would love a half day trip with option for extended bike ride over a few days because its open air/green, cheaper, good for kids, good family time. This is memorable.

In Australia alone, how many HR operators are there with a section of track as lone as Scotsdale? Pitchie Richie is 39km. Mary Valley is a bit longer and needed a major cash bailout by the state in recent years. Tassie also has the Western Railway and hopefully one day the Derwent Valley line for long trips, how many can the state support?

Anyway, no point debating further, time will tell all.
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Today I had a quick look at their public Facebook page and it seems there's more trouble behind the scenes starting to leak out...
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Today I had a quick look at their public Facebook page and it seems there's more trouble behind the scenes starting to leak out...
lkernan
Bit of infighting between some of the DTT Originals and the newer North East Crew it seems. Stupid reasons why, logos, websites,  Facebook pages and people being voted off boards... We shall wait and see if it goes belly up or continues as.

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