The demise of the ALP in the next federal election

 
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Really, yet the UK  and other nations  took a punt and signed up on July 8, fast tracked their approval processes and first jab was done in the UK on Dec 8.  In Oz, we signed up when, for 10 Mil in November

from the SMH

"Legal representatives from Pfizer and the Commonwealth were still hashing out the non-disclosure agreement when a company representative noted in an email on July 23 that the US and UK had already signed deals for doses. The US ordered an initial 100 million doses on July 22, and the UK signed a deal for 30 million doses on July 20"

So it wasn't  for another nigh on 4 months that Australia signed an agreement for 10 million doses, front of the queue to the far queue, and that's all they could get because the UK, US and other governments weren't as incompetent  as ours.

So with all the announcements from Scotty the announcer, 140 Mill, a couple of million  of AZ disappeared, the Queensland lot of apparently 50 mill, leaves us with 70 mill give or take, then why have they been scouring the world scrounging a million  here a couple of million there? Let me guess, the FOI docs are a fabrication, the timelines for Pfizer, which have been in damn near every media publication are wrong , or Morrison and the Truculent Runt have been telling us porkies.
If the timelines in damn near every media publication are substantially different to the dates I have given, then - YES! They are wrong, 100% sure of it.

Trial dates are absolutely documented Pfizer didn't start phase 3 until late July and they didn't end until after the middle of November, with published results in December, any media that reports different is lying, it's just not even in question.
Aaron
So your trying to deflect by using the trial dates, yet the US, Israel, UK and others had purchased in July, we did nothing four 4 months.  The UK was using the vaccine on Dec 8. You can  spin it as much as you like but those nations previously mentioned must have had an inkling in July that Pfizer was going to get over the line and acted accordingly. And the salient point is why has Morrison and co have been scouring the world for Pfizer over the last month? A million here a couple of million there. Basically an admittance that they made a dogs breakfast of the whole shebang and there doing a whole lot of smeg covering

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  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
So according to you the Guardian article is BS, you and your alternative facts, you old snake in the grass you. Numerous articles have been written and reports in the live media about the Pfizer stuff up, so live with it.  As for the supply constraints early on from Europe, 3 million  or so is what was argued over, and there's two lots of facts with that, Morrisons and every body else.  Here's a little read from the Liberal Parties own mouth piece     https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/where-the-bloody-hell-are-the-vaccines/news-story/75b9fc2e78f3220e69b0187cb33c3638  

I'll declare an interest in CSL, bully for us.   oops Paywall
Its not just Aaron, there is so many technical/factual, not political holes in that article its not funny, yet for god knows why you still keep flogging the dead horse. Spolier alert, your horse died months ago.

Most of your so called articles from your socialist weekly and other are nothing more than political agenda propaganda. Remember you keeping telling us no vacinnes were ordered, yet we keep telling you there is clear documented hiostory of the 140 m doses that were ordered. This is not about politics. You said nothing or insufficent was ordered, yet it was. Its documeneted on the Department of Health website, its in the media.

You also stated at one point there was no plan for 2022 boosters, yet again in the ABC, both PR by Pfizer and govt, X many million ordered. Again these responses are not politically motivated. Its simply response to your incorrect politically motivated statements.

You also keep telling us the govt didn't get sufficent supplier diversification, yet the clear, docuemented history stated and know back then and in the media was there was.

If I recall correctly and can check if you really want to debate it, the projected timeframe in Jan 2021 for vaccine rollout was 9-10 months, ie Oct 2021, but I believe that was 70%, not 80% which is now being the new standard globally as country's with these numbers appears to have few hospitalisations.
RTT_Rules
And your point is? You just don't like The Guardian coz it doesn't suite your agenda. So Morrison bragging about 140 million doses and front of the queue is just a figment of my imagination And it's not a race and all that spin back in April or whenever is another admittance that at the time that they didn't have enough vaccine. And there's still plenty of evidence  in my neck of the woods of vaccine shortage, slowly improving thanks to extra doses being scavenged around the world.

Morrison came out at a late night presser when the pooh hit the fan( Mick mentioned it previously) everyone get AZ, then had to rescind that because the various CHO's warned it wasn't recommended for youngans. No wonder there was confusion. Talk about promoted well above  his level of incompetence.

Yeah I mentioned booster shots, What,2 3 months ago, more deflection.And as for sufficient vaccine diversification, that's been  done to death but you flatly refuse to acknowledge it. Flogging that dead horse again. And before you wander off with another deflection,  on hotel quarantine
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/27/victorians-are-right-to-be-dismayed-by-the-federal-governments-failures-in-pandemic-policies
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Really, yet the UK  and other nations  took a punt and signed up on July 8, fast tracked their approval processes and first jab was done in the UK on Dec 8.  In Oz, we signed up when, for 10 Mil in November

from the SMH

"Legal representatives from Pfizer and the Commonwealth were still hashing out the non-disclosure agreement when a company representative noted in an email on July 23 that the US and UK had already signed deals for doses. The US ordered an initial 100 million doses on July 22, and the UK signed a deal for 30 million doses on July 20"

So it wasn't  for another nigh on 4 months that Australia signed an agreement for 10 million doses, front of the queue to the far queue, and that's all they could get because the UK, US and other governments weren't as incompetent  as ours.

So with all the announcements from Scotty the announcer, 140 Mill, a couple of million  of AZ disappeared, the Queensland lot of apparently 50 mill, leaves us with 70 mill give or take, then why have they been scouring the world scrounging a million  here a couple of million there? Let me guess, the FOI docs are a fabrication, the timelines for Pfizer, which have been in damn near every media publication are wrong , or Morrison and the Truculent Runt have been telling us porkies.
If the timelines in damn near every media publication are substantially different to the dates I have given, then - YES! They are wrong, 100% sure of it.

Trial dates are absolutely documented Pfizer didn't start phase 3 until late July and they didn't publish until after the middle of November, any media that reports different is lying, it's just not even in question.
From Wiki
The Pivotal Phase II–III Trial with the lead vaccine candidate "BNT162b2" began in July. Preliminary results from Phase I–II clinical trials on BNT162b2, published in October 2020, indicated potential for its safety and efficacy.[24] During the same month, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) began a periodic review of BNT162b2.[149]

The study of BNT162b2 is a continuous-phase trial in Phase III as of November 2020.[25] It is a "randomized, placebo-controlled, observer-blind, dose-finding, vaccine candidate-selection, and efficacy study in healthy individuals".[25] The study expanded during mid-2020 to assess efficacy and safety of BNT162b2 in greater numbers of participants, reaching tens of thousands of people receiving test vaccinations in multiple countries in collaboration with Pfizer and Fosun.[27][94]

Wobert
One more time

Of the 140m doses ordered
~ 51 m doses were Novovax
https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-government-response/australias-vaccine-agreements#novavax

~ 50 m doses were UQ
The University of Queensland vaccine was abandoned in December 2020 after trials revealed that, while it was safe, it triggered false positives on HIV tests

~ Pfizer, original order was around 10m doese
The Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) provisionally approved the Pfizer vaccine in January 2021.[179] The Australian government ordered 10 million doses, with the first 80,000 to be delivered in February 2021, but production problems and the imposition of export controls by the European Union (EU) onto deliveries to countries outside Europe made meeting the delivery schedule problematic.[180]
- AZ - The below explains why AZ was heavily favoured over Pfizer.
Delivery issues also affected deliveries of the Oxford–AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, which was provisionally approved by the TGA in February,[181] and received final approval in March.[182] Orders were reduced from 3.8 million to 1.2 million doses of this vaccine, which was manufactured in Belgium,[180][183] and arrival was pushed back to March 2021.[184] CSL Limited began manufacturing 50 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in Melbourne in November 2020. Deliveries were expected to commence in March.[185] The AstraZeneca vaccine could be stored at normal refrigeration temperatures of 2 to 8 °C (36 to 46 °F), whereas the Pfizer vaccine required storage at −70 °C (−94 °F).[184] However, concerns were raised about the efficacy of the AstraZeneca vaccine.[186][187] The Australian and New Zealand Society for Immunology called for a pause in its rollout, as the efficacy of the vaccine reported by trials was insufficient to achieve the desired herd immunity effect.[188] CSL management declined an invitation to appear before an Australian Senate inquiry.[189]

in addition, Australia is also ordering vaccines for Pacific Islands. I have no idea if these are counted as part of Australia's overall quota
Australia has committed $623.2 million over three years to assist countries in the Pacific and Southeast Asia to access COVID-19 vaccines:
  • This includes $523.2 million for our regional Vaccine Access and Health Security Initiative, which commenced on 23 March 2021 and will fund the provision of vaccines to our neighbouring countries at a current rate of 120,000 doses a week and providing technical support for vaccine roll outs;


If you still want to play politics after reading all this, then good luck to you. Its worth noting that the ALP have never denied any of the above.
RTT_Rules
Ummm, yeah right, okay, you do realise the ALP haven't been in power since 2013. You keep referring to my political bias, another irony meter goes phut.  So you take something that you are guilty of , and try to imply that on someone else. Suit yourself. (shrug)
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

So according to you the Guardian article is BS, you and your alternative facts, you old snake in the grass you. Numerous articles have been written and reports in the live media about the Pfizer stuff up, so live with it.  As for the supply constraints early on from Europe, 3 million  or so is what was argued over, and there's two lots of facts with that, Morrisons and every body else.  Here's a little read from the Liberal Parties own mouth piece     https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/where-the-bloody-hell-are-the-vaccines/news-story/75b9fc2e78f3220e69b0187cb33c3638  

I'll declare an interest in CSL, bully for us.   oops Paywall
Its not just Aaron, there is so many technical/factual, not political holes in that article its not funny, yet for god knows why you still keep flogging the dead horse. Spolier alert, your horse died months ago.

Most of your so called articles from your socialist weekly and other are nothing more than political agenda propaganda. Remember you keeping telling us no vacinnes were ordered, yet we keep telling you there is clear documented hiostory of the 140 m doses that were ordered. This is not about politics. You said nothing or insufficent was ordered, yet it was. Its documeneted on the Department of Health website, its in the media.

You also stated at one point there was no plan for 2022 boosters, yet again in the ABC, both PR by Pfizer and govt, X many million ordered. Again these responses are not politically motivated. Its simply response to your incorrect politically motivated statements.

You also keep telling us the govt didn't get sufficent supplier diversification, yet the clear, docuemented history stated and know back then and in the media was there was.

If I recall correctly and can check if you really want to debate it, the projected timeframe in Jan 2021 for vaccine rollout was 9-10 months, ie Oct 2021, but I believe that was 70%, not 80% which is now being the new standard globally as country's with these numbers appears to have few hospitalisations.
And your point is? You just don't like The Guardian coz it doesn't suite your agenda. So Morrison bragging about 140 million doses and front of the queue is just a figment of my imagination And it's not a race and all that spin back in April or whenever is another admittance that at the time that they didn't have enough vaccine. And there's still plenty of evidence  in my neck of the woods of vaccine shortage, slowly improving thanks to extra doses being scavenged around the world.

Morrison came out at a late night presser when the pooh hit the fan( Mick mentioned it previously) everyone get AZ, then had to rescind that because the various CHO's warned it wasn't recommended for youngans. No wonder there was confusion. Talk about promoted well above  his level of incompetence.

Yeah I mentioned booster shots, What,2 3 months ago, more deflection.And as for sufficient vaccine diversification, that's been  done to death but you flatly refuse to acknowledge it. Flogging that dead horse again. And before you wander off with another deflection,  on hotel quarantine
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/27/victorians-are-right-to-be-dismayed-by-the-federal-governments-failures-in-pandemic-policies
wobert
https://www.amazon.com.au/Accidental-Prime-Minister-Annika-Smethurst/dp/0733646948/ref=asc_df_0733646948/?tag=googleshopdsk-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=463522538556&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3621549219675236166&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9071743&hvtargid=pla-1409608569036&psc=1

Not to overlook the fact Morrison lost the first preselection vote for by 82-8.

Niki Sava I believe it was summed it up to a tee, Morrison waits too long to deal with an issue before going on to mishandle it.

We’re heading towards a khaki election.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
And your point is? You just don't like The Guardian coz it doesn't suite your agenda. So Morrison bragging about 140 million doses and front of the queue is just a figment of my imagination And it's not a race and all that spin back in April or whenever is another admittance that at the time that they didn't have enough vaccine. And there's still plenty of evidence  in my neck of the woods of vaccine shortage, slowly improving thanks to extra doses being scavenged around the world.

Morrison came out at a late night presser when the pooh hit the fan( Mick mentioned it previously) everyone get AZ, then had to rescind that because the various CHO's warned it wasn't recommended for youngans. No wonder there was confusion. Talk about promoted well above  his level of incompetence.

Yeah I mentioned booster shots, What,2 3 months ago, more deflection.And as for sufficient vaccine diversification, that's been  done to death but you flatly refuse to acknowledge it. Flogging that dead horse again. And before you wander off with another deflection,  on hotel quarantine
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/27/victorians-are-right-to-be-dismayed-by-the-federal-governments-failures-in-pandemic-policies
wobert
Incorrect, I quoted the Guardian at times including from your own link back to you as you failed to read it correctly as Aaron has pointed out. The Guardian is however not reknown for its accuracy and hence why I checked with other websites that are more likely to actually be correct. I note you have not actually attempted to discredit any of what was provided above.

Whats a figment of your immagintion is everything that happened after those comments.

Spoiler alert, the whole world has a vaccine shortage, the causes for Australia have been discussed by myself and others with evidence to you in multiple threads. You however are still stuck on your merry go round.

No, you mentioned the boosters it around 4-6 weeks after the annoucement, along with a few others.

YEs, vaccine diversification has been done to death, yet you still cannot let it go and still incorrect. Lets say it again one more time. 4 companies intially, two failed to achieve approval, one later being phased out. BAsically left us with just Pfizer until Q2 when Moderna orders were placed once the US cleared for export. WHY IS THIS IS HARD TO COMPREHEND?

No defelction from me, its always you.

As for that article, what complete crap. We have discussed all this before, I and others have provided references to actual sites for which you never address and complete deny. Last I recall before the "Gold Standard" comment of Quararatine was refusal of Fed support to run said quarantine.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Ummm, yeah right, okay, you do realise the ALP haven't been in power since 2013. You keep referring to my political bias, another irony meter goes phut.  So you take something that you are guilty of , and try to imply that on someone else. Suit yourself. (shrug)
wobert
So in short, you agree with all the data provided by myself and others, finally.

You are for somereason telling me ALP lost power in 2013, I'm sure you you will enlighten me further on why this is relevent to anything.

You are accusing me on being politically biased, yet how often do I start with "Albo is/said/hasn't ....", yet every 2nd post you post starts with "Morrision..."  and I have lead the discussion with an accusation or simply replied to your incorrect statements?

Yes, I shrug at your comments all the time, at least you are using sentances today. Wink
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
And your point is? You just don't like The Guardian coz it doesn't suite your agenda. So Morrison bragging about 140 million doses and front of the queue is just a figment of my imagination And it's not a race and all that spin back in April or whenever is another admittance that at the time that they didn't have enough vaccine. And there's still plenty of evidence  in my neck of the woods of vaccine shortage, slowly improving thanks to extra doses being scavenged around the world.

Morrison came out at a late night presser when the pooh hit the fan( Mick mentioned it previously) everyone get AZ, then had to rescind that because the various CHO's warned it wasn't recommended for youngans. No wonder there was confusion. Talk about promoted well above  his level of incompetence.

Yeah I mentioned booster shots, What,2 3 months ago, more deflection.And as for sufficient vaccine diversification, that's been  done to death but you flatly refuse to acknowledge it. Flogging that dead horse again. And before you wander off with another deflection,  on hotel quarantine
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/27/victorians-are-right-to-be-dismayed-by-the-federal-governments-failures-in-pandemic-policies
Incorrect, I quoted the Guardian at times including from your own link back to you as you failed to read it correctly as Aaron has pointed out. The Guardian is however not reknown for its accuracy and hence why I checked with other websites that are more likely to actually be correct. I note you have not actually attempted to discredit any of what was provided above.

Whats a figment of your immagintion is everything that happened after those comments.

Spoiler alert, the whole world has a vaccine shortage, the causes for Australia have been discussed by myself and others with evidence to you in multiple threads. You however are still stuck on your merry go round.

No, you mentioned the boosters it around 4-6 weeks after the annoucement, along with a few others.

YEs, vaccine diversification has been done to death, yet you still cannot let it go and still incorrect. Lets say it again one more time. 4 companies intially, two failed to achieve approval, one later being phased out. BAsically left us with just Pfizer until Q2 when Moderna orders were placed once the US cleared for export. WHY IS THIS IS HARD TO COMPREHEND?

No defelction from me, its always you.

As for that article, what complete crap. We have discussed all this before, I and others have provided references to actual sites for which you never address and complete deny. Last I recall before the "Gold Standard" comment of Quararatine was refusal of Fed support to run said quarantine.
RTT_Rules
What on earth are you babbling about, more alternative facts,, so now you deflect to the whole world has a vaccine shortage. In other words you've got nothing. As for boosters,the Feds only mentioned it after Kevin Rudd totally embarrassed them by mentioning it to the boss of Pfizer. A day or so later you should have seen Hunt trying to spin his way out of it, because they probably hadn't even thought of it.    

When it comes to vaccine diversification, is it your total ignorance, or trying to cover for Federal government incompetence. Links have been provided previously in various threads on Covid, yet you still  try flogging it. Reminds  me of when you spent a fortnight arguing over the veracity of an AEMO report in one of the Energy threads, you ended up burying youself in a hole full of alternative facts.

As for the article I linked to by Prof Bill Bowtell, you tell us its crap. So now you know more than Prof  Bill Bowtell who's   one of the most senior health professionals in the country. Good one champ

Go on have another go,  you know you want to, give us another half dozen straw men and deflections   Bill Bowtell   bwwwaaaahhhaa spare me.....
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Ummm, yeah right, okay, you do realise the ALP haven't been in power since 2013. You keep referring to my political bias, another irony meter goes phut.  So you take something that you are guilty of , and try to imply that on someone else. Suit yourself. (shrug)
So in short, you agree with all the data provided by myself and others, finally.

You are for somereason telling me ALP lost power in 2013, I'm sure you you will enlighten me further on why this is relevent to anything.

You are accusing me on being politically biased, yet how often do I start with "Albo is/said/hasn't ....", yet every 2nd post you post starts with "Morrision..."  and I have lead the discussion with an accusation or simply replied to your incorrect statements?

Yes, I shrug at your comments all the time, at least you are using sentances today. Wink
RTT_Rules
I barely skipped through it, just trying to justify the incompetence of the feds, and you bought up the ALP, trying more deflection

Next you'll be trying to justify Christian Porters latest actions. Dastyari got sacked for less, and rightly so. Go on champ have ago, you know you want to...   snigger snigger
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
So now you know more than Prof  Bill Bowtell who's   one of the most senior health professionals in the country. Good one champ
"wobert"
Not at all; he knows better than everyone including people who are on the spot.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Really, yet the UK  and other nations  took a punt and signed up on July 8, fast tracked their approval processes and first jab was done in the UK on Dec 8.  In Oz, we signed up when, for 10 Mil in November

from the SMH

"Legal representatives from Pfizer and the Commonwealth were still hashing out the non-disclosure agreement when a company representative noted in an email on July 23 that the US and UK had already signed deals for doses. The US ordered an initial 100 million doses on July 22, and the UK signed a deal for 30 million doses on July 20"

So it wasn't  for another nigh on 4 months that Australia signed an agreement for 10 million doses, front of the queue to the far queue, and that's all they could get because the UK, US and other governments weren't as incompetent  as ours.

So with all the announcements from Scotty the announcer, 140 Mill, a couple of million  of AZ disappeared, the Queensland lot of apparently 50 mill, leaves us with 70 mill give or take, then why have they been scouring the world scrounging a million  here a couple of million there? Let me guess, the FOI docs are a fabrication, the timelines for Pfizer, which have been in damn near every media publication are wrong , or Morrison and the Truculent Runt have been telling us porkies.
If the timelines in damn near every media publication are substantially different to the dates I have given, then - YES! They are wrong, 100% sure of it.

Trial dates are absolutely documented Pfizer didn't start phase 3 until late July and they didn't end until after the middle of November, with published results in December, any media that reports different is lying, it's just not even in question.
So your trying to deflect by using the trial dates, yet the US, Israel, UK and others had purchased in July, we did nothing four 4 months.  The UK was using the vaccine on Dec 8. You can  spin it as much as you like but those nations previously mentioned must have had an inkling in July that Pfizer was going to get over the line and acted accordingly. And the salient point is why has Morrison and co have been scouring the world for Pfizer over the last month? A million here a couple of million there. Basically an admittance that they made a dogs breakfast of the whole shebang and there doing a whole lot of smeg covering
Have you ever seen the signs at fairs warning of the minimum height required to partake in the rides? I don't think you have the minimum intellect required to partake in this debate - in that regard, I have to tell you that I can no longer tell you apart from Don or Mytrone without looking at the name on the post.

You and your chosen publications, (yes, even those you perceive as having a bias different to yours - even though they actually have the same bias as you, namely, trying to pin blame for an unforeseeable circumstance on 'someone' because you're incapable of accepting that sometimes non ideal outcome just happen) are using purely 20-20 hindsight to look at this, it's easy to look at something in the past and have an idea of how to improve, but much harder to predict a perfect solution ahead of the problem.

Fortunately science does not carry this bias, fortunately for you, neither do I. Get yourself a subscription to a decent publication like 'Nature' and actually learn something instead of dissolving your brain cells with 'newspaper' articles.

Australia had something in the order of 140M vaccines spaced across four vaccine manufacturers on order, 130M give or take if you exclude our mid November order of 10M Pfizer vaccines. This is widely documented - you just don't want to accept it.

For a population of in the order of 23 million how many vaccines do you think we should have ordered? Consider this not knowing (and having no way to foresee) trial success/fail and efficacy data and/or trade embargo issued late in the timeline. How many vaccine sources and how many dollars would you continue to throw at this problem?

We as humans have a decent track record in creating viable vaccines based on live, dead, mutated, truncated, etc viruses, there are many vaccines of this type under development, we have a decent level of certainty that these techniques are likely to yield working results. We have a 'new' technology in vaccine manufacture being investigated by two US companies, one of which has exactly zero commercial products on the market, the other has never successfully made a product of this type before, indeed there are exactly zero products/drugs/vaccines approved for human use using this 'new' technology.

You're suggesting that the Australian government ought to have (without medical advice to do so) abandoned ordering product that we have reason to believe will be successful and effective, and instead spent up big on a product with not only no track record in successful vaccine manufacture, but no track record of successful product use in general? Sure, today we know that mRNA vaccines for Covid do well, but you would have been pretty brave to back them on the basis of incomplete evidence.

Sure the US ordered up big, you know who was the President that did the ordering? Know the UK PM that did their ordering? It must really hurt your brain to know, but it was Trump and Johnson - if in the middle of last year our PM made a press conference and said 'I think Trump and Johnson have this Covid vaccination idea nailed, I am going to ignore one of our own universities (itself with a decent track record in successful vaccine development, and regarded as a forerunner at the time), our medical professionals, and Europe and just buy never before successfully made product that Trump and Johnson are buying.' - You would have been off your smeg tree. You would have probably needed to look up who the Governor General was and angrily written them a letter asking for them to dismiss the Federal Government - and I might have nearly agreed with you.

You see, in medicine, testing and data are everything, especially when you're talking about a never before implemented product, and in this case in particular, a brand new production technology. Trial dates and data are not at all a deflection, in medicine, in science, they're everything, especially when you have quite literally nothing else aside from a single human trial of a different vaccine four years prior, that has not progressed to market, to go on. Make no mistake, that Phase 3 trial was a big deal, a really big deal.

By all means, continue getting your 'facts' from Gaurdian, or whichever non scientific source you like, just don't expect people who know how science works, and who know what it is to try and 'predict the unpredictable' not to have a laugh at you along the way.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So according to you the Guardian article is BS, you and your alternative facts, you old snake in the grass you. Numerous articles have been written and reports in the live media about the Pfizer stuff up, so live with it.  As for the supply constraints early on from Europe, 3 million  or so is what was argued over, and there's two lots of facts with that, Morrisons and every body else.  Here's a little read from the Liberal Parties own mouth piece     https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/where-the-bloody-hell-are-the-vaccines/news-story/75b9fc2e78f3220e69b0187cb33c3638  

I'll declare an interest in CSL, bully for us.   oops Paywall
Its not just Aaron, there is so many technical/factual, not political holes in that article its not funny, yet for god knows why you still keep flogging the dead horse. Spolier alert, your horse died months ago.

Most of your so called articles from your socialist weekly and other are nothing more than political agenda propaganda. Remember you keeping telling us no vacinnes were ordered, yet we keep telling you there is clear documented hiostory of the 140 m doses that were ordered. This is not about politics. You said nothing or insufficent was ordered, yet it was. Its documeneted on the Department of Health website, its in the media.

You also stated at one point there was no plan for 2022 boosters, yet again in the ABC, both PR by Pfizer and govt, X many million ordered. Again these responses are not politically motivated. Its simply response to your incorrect politically motivated statements.

You also keep telling us the govt didn't get sufficent supplier diversification, yet the clear, docuemented history stated and know back then and in the media was there was.

If I recall correctly and can check if you really want to debate it, the projected timeframe in Jan 2021 for vaccine rollout was 9-10 months, ie Oct 2021, but I believe that was 70%, not 80% which is now being the new standard globally as country's with these numbers appears to have few hospitalisations.
And your point is? You just don't like The Guardian coz it doesn't suite your agenda. So Morrison bragging about 140 million doses and front of the queue is just a figment of my imagination And it's not a race and all that spin back in April or whenever is another admittance that at the time that they didn't have enough vaccine. And there's still plenty of evidence  in my neck of the woods of vaccine shortage, slowly improving thanks to extra doses being scavenged around the world.

Morrison came out at a late night presser when the pooh hit the fan( Mick mentioned it previously) everyone get AZ, then had to rescind that because the various CHO's warned it wasn't recommended for youngans. No wonder there was confusion. Talk about promoted well above  his level of incompetence.

Yeah I mentioned booster shots, What,2 3 months ago, more deflection.
wobert
That the 140 million doses were not on order is a pure figment of your imagination - it's widely documented. It's true, you do like to indulge in alternate facts.

Not enough vaccine? What about boosters? Basic maths, really, really basic maths, 140 million doses / 23 million people = a bit more than 6 doses / person. How many doses and boosters do you want to have? In case you don't get it, I'll specifically point out that this meant triple the required initial + booster.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Then why have there been vaccine shortages in this country?  Don't let the facts of the vaccine procurement stuff up, and the distribution total screw  up hit you on the a$$ on the way out

You waffle on around here trying to portray yourself as the smartest bloke in room, and we indulge you out of courtesy and tolerate your snide remarks, and it must be good for your ego. But if you were in a room with luminaries like Bill Bowtell and others of that class, you'd be asked to make the sandwiches and deliver the tea.

I'll turn the barbie off, your done
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Can you read?

Trade embargo
Undesirable side effect in trial
Failure of product to pass, or lack of submission for TGA approval


We have been over this many, many times.

How you have not got it by now is incomprehensible to me.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Can you read?

Trade embargo
Undesirable side effect in trial
Failure of product to pass, or lack of submission for TGA approval


We have been over this many, many times.

How you have not got it by now is incomprehensible to me.
Aaron
Meanwhile for the umpteenth time, UK ,USA and numerous others ordered 100's of millions of doses of Pfizer in July, and fast tracked their approval regimes. The UK was putting jabs in arms in December, Australia, despite all the announcements didn't order any Pfizer until November. We only started vaccinating on Feb 21, and with stuff all supplies of anything, as we all know it was a strollout. Because of the lack of Pfizer, we were limited to relying on AZ for over 60's, and what Pfiser we had went  to frontline workers who were eligible, which was fair enough.But it soon became apparent that we were well short of what was required, so to cover the Feds butt, Morrison in a presser tells us it's not a race.

The stories that are coming from frontline workers in NSW, and  probably from Victoria in the not to distant future are testament to this monumental stuff up, and are truly gut wrenching.

I think  It might have you in a previous post mentioned something about  kids, and what parents would be going through. Once you've had kids it puts a complete different perspective on things (I used to hate all kids till I had my own) the anguish of parents at the thought and risk of long covid or worse, would be unimaginable. And it all goes back to the initial failure.

It's all water under the bridge now, but  a lot of people are going  to pay a terrible price.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Australia is paying a terrible price, but that’s mostly because those in the east cannot follow direction.

What do you call the price the US/UK/EU (because I notice you never mention the price paid in predominantly ‘non white’ populations)? Note that many countries you would think might be doing terribly are doing better despite not have any (or much) Pfizer.

India for example, effectively zero Pfizer use, yet the US on about 30% of their population have 150% of their deaths, the UK with about 6% of the Indian population have 30% of the deaths. Do I need to tell you in advance that India also has old people? And don’t go near suggesting it’s a ‘population density issue’ that’s making Melbourne and Sydney data look so bad.

Don’t like India as an example, take a look at Indonesia, take a look at China (though don’t entirely trust their data) and tell us how they did so well with near zero Pfizer.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Well  I get the majority of my  information from Europe and US. I'm in the the sharemarket a fair bit and I read a heap of European and American stuff.Internet being what it is,follow a link and spend an hour reading something else. Then go fark I was supposed to hang out the washing and mow the lawn.

India being what it is,I doubt anyone, even the Indian government would have a total picture of whats going on. But apparently improved  a lot. Indonesia was in trouble, haven't seen much in the last couple of months. Last I read Africa was at about 3 or4 % vaxed and parts were having diabolicals
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Incorrect, I quoted the Guardian at times including from your own link back to you as you failed to read it correctly as Aaron has pointed out. The Guardian is however not reknown for its accuracy and hence why I checked with other websites that are more likely to actually be correct. I note you have not actually attempted to discredit any of what was provided above.

Whats a figment of your immagintion is everything that happened after those comments.

Spoiler alert, the whole world has a vaccine shortage, the causes for Australia have been discussed by myself and others with evidence to you in multiple threads. You however are still stuck on your merry go round.

No, you mentioned the boosters it around 4-6 weeks after the annoucement, along with a few others.

YEs, vaccine diversification has been done to death, yet you still cannot let it go and still incorrect. Lets say it again one more time. 4 companies intially, two failed to achieve approval, one later being phased out. BAsically left us with just Pfizer until Q2 when Moderna orders were placed once the US cleared for export. WHY IS THIS IS HARD TO COMPREHEND?

No defelction from me, its always you.

As for that article, what complete crap. We have discussed all this before, I and others have provided references to actual sites for which you never address and complete deny. Last I recall before the "Gold Standard" comment of Quararatine was refusal of Fed support to run said quarantine.
What on earth are you babbling about, more alternative facts,, so now you deflect to the whole world has a vaccine shortage. In other words you've got nothing. As for boosters,the Feds only mentioned it after Kevin Rudd totally embarrassed them by mentioning it to the boss of Pfizer. A day or so later you should have seen Hunt trying to spin his way out of it, because they probably hadn't even thought of it.    

When it comes to vaccine diversification, is it your total ignorance, or trying to cover for Federal government incompetence. Links have been provided previously in various threads on Covid, yet you still  try flogging it. Reminds  me of when you spent a fortnight arguing over the veracity of an AEMO report in one of the Energy threads, you ended up burying youself in a hole full of alternative facts.

As for the article I linked to by Prof Bill Bowtell, you tell us its crap. So now you know more than Prof  Bill Bowtell who's   one of the most senior health professionals in the country. Good one champ

Go on have another go,  you know you want to, give us another half dozen straw men and deflections   Bill Bowtell   bwwwaaaahhhaa spare me.....
wobert
Wobert (and MR like Valvegear you are just as bad.)

You are frequently making unqualified, unsupported editorials and statements about the vaccine, no poblem with that, its  free website.

Myself and others have corrected, provided links. No alternative facts, the actual facts.

Pfizer booster order was PR by both Pfizer and feds at same time on or around 25th July
.
https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-vaccine-rollout-85-million-pfizer-booster-doses-to-arrive-february-2022/2ec88b59-aa76-4a26-a1cb-4bdf997888ea
Rudd's Tweets on 19th Aug "What about boosters?" were AFTER the release of the Boosters, nearly a month after

Pfizer themselves confirmed they don't talk to ex PM's, so who was Rudd talking too? The wall?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-12/pfizer-kevin-rudd-covid-19-vaccines-australia/100286370


One more time for the slow learning, Australia sort vaccines from four independent suppliers, two failed to progress past trials.
Aaron said it, Mr Lane has said it, links posted from various independet websites including the ABC and others off shore than have no bias to Australia such as WHO etc. Why on earth do we have to repeat this? Seriously, are you being ignorant or arrogant?

AEMO, seriously, we are talking about your baseless statements on CV19 vaccines, next you will accuse me of diversion, oh wait you already did, hypocritic comes to mind. If you want to raise something on AEMO, please start a seperate thread.

Any references from "The Guardian" needed to be treated with a grain of salt and its not just be telling you that over CV-19 vaccines, it applies to everything.

Again your baby talk references to the "Wizard of Oz". Don't look in a mirror today will you!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Ummm, yeah right, okay, you do realise the ALP haven't been in power since 2013. You keep referring to my political bias, another irony meter goes phut.  So you take something that you are guilty of , and try to imply that on someone else. Suit yourself. (shrug)
So in short, you agree with all the data provided by myself and others, finally.

You are for somereason telling me ALP lost power in 2013, I'm sure you you will enlighten me further on why this is relevent to anything.

You are accusing me on being politically biased, yet how often do I start with "Albo is/said/hasn't ....", yet every 2nd post you post starts with "Morrision..."  and I have lead the discussion with an accusation or simply replied to your incorrect statements?

Yes, I shrug at your comments all the time, at least you are using sentances today. Wink
I barely skipped through it, just trying to justify the incompetence of the feds, and you bought up the ALP, trying more deflection

Next you'll be trying to justify Christian Porters latest actions. Dastyari got sacked for less, and rightly so. Go on champ have ago, you know you want to...   snigger snigger
wobert
You skipped because the truth hurts doesn't it, or it reality biting you on the smeg?

I'm not trying to justify anything, just correcting your absolute BS posts.

Again please, lets stick to the CV-19 story an if you wat a diversion, start a seperate thread.

And he returns to repeatative baby talk, "snigger snigger", sigh!Rolling Eyes
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
So now you know more than Prof  Bill Bowtell who's   one of the most senior health professionals in the country. Good one champ
Not at all; he knows better than everyone including people who are on the spot.
Valvegear
Do your reputation a favour and get out of the Wobert cheer squad boat while you can.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Then why have there been vaccine shortages in this country?  Don't let the facts of the vaccine procurement stuff up, and the distribution total screw  up hit you on the a$$ on the way out

You waffle on around here trying to portray yourself as the smartest bloke in room, and we indulge you out of courtesy and tolerate your snide remarks, and it must be good for your ego. But if you were in a room with luminaries like Bill Bowtell and others of that class, you'd be asked to make the sandwiches and deliver the tea.

I'll turn the barbie off, your done
wobert
OMG Wobert.

Do I need to get my 11 year old to go through the maths with you?

You are so deep in a hole and you come out with the barbie tag?

FFS, are you the next Don? How much evidence does someone need to give before you just STFU.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Then why have there been vaccine shortages in this country?  Don't let the facts of the vaccine procurement stuff up, and the distribution total screw  up hit you on the a$$ on the way out

You waffle on around here trying to portray yourself as the smartest bloke in room, and we indulge you out of courtesy and tolerate your snide remarks, and it must be good for your ego. But if you were in a room with luminaries like Bill Bowtell and others of that class, you'd be asked to make the sandwiches and deliver the tea.

I'll turn the barbie off, your done
OMG Wobert.

Do I need to get my 11 year old to go through the maths with you?

You are so deep in a hole and you come out with the barbie tag?

FFS, are you the next Don? How much evidence does someone need to give before you just STFU.
RTT_Rules
Gee, your really boring......champ
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Can you read?

Trade embargo
Undesirable side effect in trial
Failure of product to pass, or lack of submission for TGA approval


We have been over this many, many times.

How you have not got it by now is incomprehensible to me.
Meanwhile for the umpteenth time, UK ,USA and numerous others ordered 100's of millions of doses of Pfizer in July, and fast tracked their approval regimes. The UK was putting jabs in arms in December, Australia, despite all the announcements didn't order any Pfizer until November. We only started vaccinating on Feb 21, and with stuff all supplies of anything, as we all know it was a strollout. Because of the lack of Pfizer, we were limited to relying on AZ for over 60's, and what Pfiser we had went  to frontline workers who were eligible, which was fair enough.But it soon became apparent that we were well short of what was required, so to cover the Feds butt, Morrison in a presser tells us it's not a race.

The stories that are coming from frontline workers in NSW, and  probably from Victoria in the not to distant future are testament to this monumental stuff up, and are truly gut wrenching.

I think  It might have you in a previous post mentioned something about  kids, and what parents would be going through. Once you've had kids it puts a complete different perspective on things (I used to hate all kids till I had my own) the anguish of parents at the thought and risk of long covid or worse, would be unimaginable. And it all goes back to the initial failure.

It's all water under the bridge now, but  a lot of people are going  to pay a terrible price.
wobert
Seriously Wobert, sorry Don Mk2, you are so full of $hit on this subject you are unbelievable.

People were actually dying in the streets in those coutries, do you need to see how they were being buried in mass graves on Hart Island, no family, no service, just get them in the ground, freezer trucks being used to store bodies, yes they took a few extra short cuts!

130 million doses were ordered before, why does this need to be stated AGAIN!

You keep asking what happened to these vaccines, its simple for rest of the 99.9%, 2/3 of them were never sucessful moving beyond trial phase. Do I need to get my 11 year old to read it out to you?

My kids survived 6 weeks not being allowed to leave the house apart from backyard as did the rest of the kids here. No physical activity outside apart from backyard which is small, many didn't have that living in apartments. We have daily activity running up and down stairs, star jumps etc. The kid all survived, the lockdown in Australia is a fraction of this.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Then why have there been vaccine shortages in this country?  Don't let the facts of the vaccine procurement stuff up, and the distribution total screw  up hit you on the a$$ on the way out

You waffle on around here trying to portray yourself as the smartest bloke in room, and we indulge you out of courtesy and tolerate your snide remarks, and it must be good for your ego. But if you were in a room with luminaries like Bill Bowtell and others of that class, you'd be asked to make the sandwiches and deliver the tea.

I'll turn the barbie off, your done
OMG Wobert.

Do I need to get my 11 year old to go through the maths with you?

You are so deep in a hole and you come out with the barbie tag?

FFS, are you the next Don? How much evidence does someone need to give before you just STFU.
Gee, your really boring......champ
wobert
What the hell do you think your repeatitive harping on about 140m doses has become?
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Hey champ, wrap your laughing gear around this and keep me( and perhaps a few others) amused for a few hours




https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2021/09/16/michael-pascoe-government-incompetence/
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Seriously Wobert, sorry Don Mk2, you are so full of $hit on this subject you are unbelievable.
RTT_Rules
Written by the most self-opinionated know-all these pages have ever seen.

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