more SG to Seymour

 

Pinned post created by dthead

Posted 2 months ago

  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Ok.
I will bite.


What does ATMS stand for?
I thought you were YM-Mundrabilla for a second Wink

ATMS - Advanced Train Management System

https://www.artc.com.au/projects/atms/

A 'new' generation of signalling ARTC is developing to increase track capacity.

Taking ages to implement though....
How much 'increased track capacity' is actually to be achieved by some of these gee-wizz signaling systems than the extra crossing loops etc that inevitably seem to come with them?

Pity that they didn't put the money into the track.
I think part of it is also reducing cost associated with manual signals maintenance too.  Ie no lights, semaphores etc out in the middle of the Nullarbor.  Virtual signalling at all times.
james.au
That's a fairly smart idea given that ICE radio can give GPS co-ordinates.

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  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Thanks John

Anyone got any idea what the schedule will look like after the Shepparton services are extended from Seymour?  There would need to be another one or two Seymour locals added no?
An increase from 5 per day, to 9 per day.  ATM busses are making up the shortfall.
https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/news/regional-rail-revival/modern-trains-and-more-services-for-the-shepparton-line
Ok, I can see those busses in the timetable.  Does the VLo sit at Seymour and wait for the return bus from Shep, or does it turn around and go back to SCS?  If it waits then the 9 service Shep timetable is already there.  Though id think it would be a poor utilisation of rolling stock if it does wait.
Not quite, that Seymour TT is just the trains.

The extra busses linking Shepparton and Seymour are in this TT. They go all the way to Griffith.
https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/c6635101-43bd-4cc0-9c54-c8b68380e783/Shepparton-Melbourne-(via-Griffith-Tocumwal-Cob)
these busses are slated to be replaced by train after the upgrades.

Note: only loco drawn trains. Velocity not until the upgrades are done.

cheers
John
Getting back to your original query @James.au  

yes, the Vlo (or other) from SCS, waits at Seymour return for the Shepp bus to arrive.
This happens 4 times a day.

For the bus pax it's a 15min interchange scheduled. When it's train all the way, the station wait would revert to the normal 2min.

For the returning trains, it's not so much "idle" time

DOWN arrive/UP depart are 8:33/9:16  11:59/12:16  16:03/18:16#    19:11/ 19:53(friday)      #there is Shep down & up train inbetween

Not much of the upgrade program has been said beyond "more trains to Shepp".
The much bigger benefit is creating the abilty to schedulle more trains UP from Seymour. Wallan/Donnybrook etc. are packed to the rafters and screaming for more services

cheers
John
justarider
Stage 1 Shepp upgrade nearly complete. v/locity stabling beyond Shepp station near old oil sidings.  Lengthened crossing loop with intermediate crossover at Murchison East.  Boom barriers at 30 plus level crossings between Donnybrook and Shepp.

Stage 2 now bought forward track upgrade to Class-2m allowing 130 kmh operation from Seymour to Mooroopna; concrete sleepers throughout and re-rail new 50kg rail.  

End result allows 9 trains each way on Weekdays as commuter type V/locity.  Gives off peak two hourly service, and roughly hourly at peak times.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

How does the Government propose to get these additional services, and possibly more into Melbourne?

BG services run via the Craigieburn line, which at the best of times is overloaded during the peak. With an ever need to increase metropolitan services, where does this leave Shepp & Seymour?

What are the limitations of running the entire line SG?

Would be great if we could reduce the SG running time, would it be possible to run a 20/40 frequency on the SG?

Lockie
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
How does the Government propose to get these additional services, and possibly more into Melbourne?

BG services run via the Craigieburn line, which at the best of times is overloaded during the peak. With an ever need to increase metropolitan services, where does this leave Shepp & Seymour?
Lockie91

There are no plans for additional peak services on the Seymour line.

Extra Shepparton trains will be extensions of existing Seymour trains. Therefore they already have paths between Craigieburn and Southern Cross.

Long term, the plan is to re-open the Upfield - Somerton line as a new sparked double track line and BG V/Line trains will run via Coburg.

What are the limitations of running the entire line SG? Would be great if we could reduce the SG running time, would it be possible to run a 20/40 frequency on the SG?
Lockie91

Not possible with the current set up I would have thought. Aside from the single line deficiancies, the track through from Bunbury St to Southern Cross is just not set up for a frequent service of that nature. Think slow speed, multiple turnouts (forward facing points) and the general yard nature to it all. It's also quite busy with freight movements, which is its primary purpose.



Standard Gauge to Shepparton and beyond is nothing more than a pipe dream at this stage. I'm not saying it won't ever happen, just that nobody with any real sway is considering it at this stage.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Righto.  The foamer brain has been ticking along at this and has a foamer dream of how id shuffle a lot of this across to SG.  Reasons being better freight outcomes mainly.  But the cost (including substantial disruption cost) probs wouldn't be worth it so i know it is probably an impossibility. Most of you know im usually very rational but im taking leave of that and throwing this out for foamer discussion.

  1. SG Deniliquin-Echuca-Toolamba.  At Echuca, run SG through on east track and have DG platform at Echuca.
  2. SG single track Tocumwal-Mangalore incl Murchison East Loop
  3. Reconnect Dookie and SG (can be low speed line)
  4. SG existing BG track Mangalore to Wallan.  BG existing SG track for Hansons train (or consider other sources of gravel for the eastern side of Melbourne). Consider retiring remaining existing ARTC track and recycling materials south of Wallan.  Upgrade signalling to with at least signalling used on current ARTC line
  5. 9x SHP, 3x ABX, 2x XPT services may require one or two additional SG Vlos for some additional Seymour terminators.
  6. Retain BG track Wallan-Craigieburn.  Run higher frequency BG VLo services via Craigieburn line, terminating at Wallan to provide extra capacity
  7. DG Wallan platforms to allow SG and BG services to use them.  Alternatively, expand to 4 platforms, SG and BG, to help avoid freight conflicts
  8. 4 tracks Wallan to Somerton/Roxborough Park, West tracks existing BG, east tracks existing SG and a second track formed by linking current loops.
  9. At Roxborough Park, existing single SG continues via Jacana to cater for freight needs.  Existing double BG continues to SCS via Essendon.  New double track SG constructed Roxburough Park to Upfield.
  10. Double DG Upfield to SCS (not entirely clear how much of the track from Macaulay to SCS would be DG, maybe just to link to existing 2 or possibly might need 4 tracks.  Platforms 1, 2 and 3 full SG platforms (can be DG if needed). (Optional - double SG all the way to Macaulay and replace with all VLo/Sprinter services but cuts off city circle if done)
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
So you would basically kill off SRHC Broad gauge operations?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
So you would basically kill off SRHC Broad gauge operations?
Gman_86
How extensive are they (they have been converting stock to SG) and might they become a fully SG operator in time anyway?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
How does the Government propose to get these additional services, and possibly more into Melbourne?

BG services run via the Craigieburn line, which at the best of times is overloaded during the peak. With an ever need to increase metropolitan services, where does this leave Shepp & Seymour?

There are no plans for additional peak services on the Seymour line.

Extra Shepparton trains will be extensions of existing Seymour trains. Therefore they already have paths between Craigieburn and Southern Cross.

Long term, the plan is to re-open the Upfield - Somerton line as a new sparked double track line and BG V/Line trains will run via Coburg.
"Gman_86"
Sort of....

Whilst 9 Shepparton trains may be adequate, there is a growing demand for Seymour peaks.
Especially to service the growing "suburbs" of Wallan and Donnybrook.

Upfield-Somerton would make sense to share that load, evening out the peaks.
Ie. Upfield line takes Seymour and Craigeburn takes Shepp ( or vv).
No need for extra sparks to achieve that Vline traffic.

There would possibly be a pinch point at Craigieburn/Somerton, needing an extra track to sort it out.

cheers
John
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Righto.  The foamer brain has been ticking along at this and has a foamer dream of how id shuffle a lot of this across to SG.  Reasons being better freight outcomes mainly.  But the cost (including substantial disruption cost) probs wouldn't be worth it so i know it is probably an impossibility. Most of you know im usually very rational but im taking leave of that and throwing this out for foamer discussion.

  1. SG Deniliquin-Echuca-Toolamba.  At Echuca, run SG through on east track and have DG platform at Echuca.
  2. SG single track Tocumwal-Mangalore incl Murchison East Loop
  3. Reconnect Dookie and SG (can be low speed line)
  4. SG existing BG track Mangalore to Wallan.  BG existing SG track for Hansons train (or consider other sources of gravel for the eastern side of Melbourne). Consider retiring remaining existing ARTC track and recycling materials south of Wallan.  Upgrade signalling to with at least signalling used on current ARTC line
  5. 9x SHP, 3x ABX, 2x XPT services may require one or two additional SG Vlos for some additional Seymour terminators.
  6. Retain BG track Wallan-Craigieburn.  Run higher frequency BG VLo services via Craigieburn line, terminating at Wallan to provide extra capacity
  7. DG Wallan platforms to allow SG and BG services to use them.  Alternatively, expand to 4 platforms, SG and BG, to help avoid freight conflicts
  8. 4 tracks Wallan to Somerton/Roxborough Park, West tracks existing BG, east tracks existing SG and a second track formed by linking current loops.
  9. At Roxborough Park, existing single SG continues via Jacana to cater for freight needs.  Existing single BG continues to SCS via Essendon.  New double track SG constructed Roxburough Park to Upfield.
  10. Double DG Upfield to SCS (not entirely clear how much of the track from Macaulay to SCS would be DG, maybe 2 or possibly 4 tracks.  Platforms 1, 2 and 3 full SG platforms. (Optional - double SG all the way to Macaulay and replace with all VLo/Sprinter services but cuts off city circle if done)
james.au
time to go and find a real job.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Righto.  The foamer brain has been ticking along at this and has a foamer dream of how id shuffle a lot of this across to SG.  Reasons being better freight outcomes mainly.  But the cost (including substantial disruption cost) probs wouldn't be worth it so i know it is probably an impossibility. Most of you know im usually very rational but im taking leave of that and throwing this out for foamer discussion.

  1. SG Deniliquin-Echuca-Toolamba.  At Echuca, run SG through on east track and have DG platform at Echuca.
  2. SG single track Tocumwal-Mangalore incl Murchison East Loop
  3. Reconnect Dookie and SG (can be low speed line)
  4. SG existing BG track Mangalore to Wallan.  BG existing SG track for Hansons train (or consider other sources of gravel for the eastern side of Melbourne). Consider retiring remaining existing ARTC track and recycling materials south of Wallan.  Upgrade signalling to with at least signalling used on current ARTC line
  5. 9x SHP, 3x ABX, 2x XPT services may require one or two additional SG Vlos for some additional Seymour terminators.
  6. Retain BG track Wallan-Craigieburn.  Run higher frequency BG VLo services via Craigieburn line, terminating at Wallan to provide extra capacity
  7. DG Wallan platforms to allow SG and BG services to use them.  Alternatively, expand to 4 platforms, SG and BG, to help avoid freight conflicts
  8. 4 tracks Wallan to Somerton/Roxborough Park, West tracks existing BG, east tracks existing SG and a second track formed by linking current loops.
  9. At Roxborough Park, existing single SG continues via Jacana to cater for freight needs.  Existing single BG continues to SCS via Essendon.  New double track SG constructed Roxburough Park to Upfield.
  10. Double DG Upfield to SCS (not entirely clear how much of the track from Macaulay to SCS would be DG, maybe 2 or possibly 4 tracks.  Platforms 1, 2 and 3 full SG platforms. (Optional - double SG all the way to Macaulay and replace with all VLo/Sprinter services but cuts off city circle if done)
time to go and find a real job.
trainbrain
I did warn you all!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Interesting post James, we need to think outside of the box at times, well for me it is most of the time.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Build more and convert the BG from Craigieburn all the way to tocumwal.
That is what should happen.
Should get up DD707's nose.Smile
YM-Mundrabilla

  Carnot Minister for Railways

Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.

DD707 won.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.

DD707 won.
Carnot
I differ, unfortunately.
If/when the political decision is made to convert, it will matter nought what has been spent beforehand.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.

DD707 won.
I differ, unfortunately.
If/when the political decision is made to convert, it will matter nought what has been spent beforehand.
Lockspike
Agreed.  Sunk cost and all that.

But the political will will need to be very high.  Susanna Sheed will need to make more demands.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.

DD707 won.
Carnot
I'm afraid that you are right.

The continued use of single gauge BG concrete in lines that might, however wild the dream, be converted to SG one day is one or all of the following:
  • Negligence
  • Arrogance
  • Incompetence
  • Bastardy
  • Dereliction of duty
  • Irresponsibility
Granted that mistakes will always be made but this is not a mistake. It is part of a calculated policy that freight rail is not to succeed in Victoria.
  Inland_Sailor Junior Train Controller

Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.
Carnot
Can they not be recycled into the Melbourne network to replace the timber sleepers?
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.
Can they not be recycled into the Melbourne network to replace the timber sleepers?
Inland_Sailor
Well, it's physically possible ...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.
Can they not be recycled into the Melbourne network to replace the timber sleepers?
Inland_Sailor
Why do the job twice?
What would the breakage rate be? Concrete is less move-friendly than timber.
Quite apart from the cost are Vline and Metro sufficiently friendly and coordinated.
To do so (or attempt to do so) is simply unnecessary if the job had been done properly in the first place.
  Galron Chief Commissioner

Location: Werribee, Vic
I think everyone needs to remember that some of whats going on, if not all of it, is a political decision, not a decision of the operator, in this case, V/Line. Yes, provision for SG should have been used, especially at level crossings, but sounds like it hasnt. We just need to wait for the political will to change, and then who knows what will happen next.

And dont rely on a change of government to make it happen. Despite recent bluster, i've no confidence in the libs/nats with regard to rail in general. They have a proven track record of showing the middle finger to country rail in particular, and even though it was a labour government in charge at the time, the issues around the Murray basin rail in part manifested under a coalition government.
  Inland_Sailor Junior Train Controller

Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.
Can they not be recycled into the Melbourne network to replace the timber sleepers?
Why do the job twice?
What would the breakage rate be? Concrete is less move-friendly than timber.
Quite apart from the cost are Vline and Metro sufficiently friendly and coordinated.
To do so (or attempt to do so) is simply unnecessary if the job had been done properly in the first place.
YM-Mundrabilla
Couldn't agree more, but the question had to be asked! Presumably they're happy for someone else to pay for the job, EG ARTC should they want to take over the line and SG it!
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.
Can they not be recycled into the Melbourne network to replace the timber sleepers?
Why do the job twice?
What would the breakage rate be? Concrete is less move-friendly than timber.
Quite apart from the cost are Vline and Metro sufficiently friendly and coordinated.
To do so (or attempt to do so) is simply unnecessary if the job had been done properly in the first place.
Couldn't agree more, but the question had to be asked! Presumably they're happy for someone else to pay for the job, EG ARTC should they want to take over the line and SG it!
Inland_Sailor
Does anyone think that they are that smart as to think that far ahead?

Have the same incompetent faceless bureaucrats, whose identity no-one remembers, from the Department of Health transferred to the Department of Transport (whatever it is called today)?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Given all the 10000s of shiny new single gauge BG concrete sleepers being put in for the Shepparton line upgrade at great expense, I think we can kiss the Tocumwal and Deni SG plans goodbye.
Can they not be recycled into the Melbourne network to replace the timber sleepers?
Well, it's physically possible ...
Lockspike
Yes, but the issue is put in gauge convertible concretes now they add a couple of per cent to the project cost and they are good for 50 years. The inevitable standardization of Tocumwal and associated Toolamba - Echuca - Deniliquin lines will occur in the medium term.

Then at the time you do the conversion it is a one month move one rail inwards job with minimal service disruption.

Doing  the job now with broad gauge concretes is moronic shortsightedness, As when the inevitable happens the conversion takes months longer, and the rails have to lifted, all broad gauge sleepers removed and replaced with new sg ones, plus tamp and pack,  horrific and totally avoidable additional costs.That is the issue.

SA having been using gauge convertible concretes for over 30 years in the mainline to Serviceton and in the Adelaide Metro lines.  In 1995 when Melbourne - Adelaide was standardized the whole job was done in the month of January through AN foresight in using gauge convertible concretes and they are still there in the track today set as standard gauge.  There were some minor issues with rail creep in te Adelaide Hills on reverse curves but those issues were addressed with altered fixings. The latest gauge convertible sleeper type used in the Adelaide Metro system uses an improved clip fixing and has been trouble free for many years.  So we should be using that sleeper type here in all future regional tie renewals.  It is understood that Austrak at Avalon has even developed a low profile variant which could be used as timber replacements and mixed in with timber, but it is understood our world experts in sleeper technology at V/Line refuse to use gauge convertible sleepers of any type, full or low profile concretes, or gauge convertible steel.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
'... our world experts in sleeper technology at V/Line refuse to use gauge convertible sleepers of any type, full or low profile concretes, or gauge convertible steel. ... '

How do they get away with it?
Is there no supervision of Vline and its activities?
  hbedriver Assistant Commissioner

I wish people would stop assuming that Metro will want used Vline BG concrete sleepers. Metro are rapidly installing their own sleepers, by the time Vline release any Metro won’t have any use for them.

Using non-convertible sleepers just makes them a stranded asset. Mind you, that then precludes any more gauge conversion to the Devil’s width, as that would then need 100% new sleepers with no sale value for those released.

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