The corona virus COVID-19

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Relative servicing industrial plumbing, the subject of getting jabbed arose with customer. Not getting it, it’s all BS, Craig Kelly is the only one speaking sensibility.

A bumpy few months to come.
michaelgm

These are the idiots that have their epiphany at the hospital on their death bed. A bit late then. Craig Kelly...geez, real Trumpian fan club stuff here.

All I will say is the sensible ones get fully vacced and the remainder are left to Darwinism, natural selection, to sort out their futures. Yes I'm being that blunt.

Mike.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Queensland has had it's problems with quarantine too. For example, early in January 2021 a cleaner tested positive for what's now called the alpha variant and their government's response was authoritarian, three days of a stay at home order in Greater Brisbane.

No, being close to airports is better than being near big cities and as with airports, there is a case for quarantine to be run away from especially the centres of cities. It's better than locking down big cities.

First of all, premier Macca has been there and he is promoting that.

First of all, quarantine is not for going on or coming back from a vacation. It's for citizens and permanent residents coming home and staying home. It's for those who are out of the country at the time the border was closed to come home and maybe also for returning travellers who left under the most extraordinary circumstances. I shall refer to such returning travellers as essential arrivals.
  • If a citizen or permanent resident is in Australia or New Zealand when both countries close their borders to the rest of the world, they should stay in their travel bubble at least until there is a vaccine, they have had the vaccine and the vaccine is available to all.
  • If a citizen or permanent resident is outside the bubble at the time the borders are closed, and their decision is to come home, they also should stay home at least until the above criteria are met.

If someone who is permitted to live here is here when the borders are closed to the rest of the world, then it is their responsibility towards an entire nation to stay in this travel bubble unless leaving under the most extraordinary circumstances. These circumstances do not include attending conferences, weddings or even funerals.

Stripping citizenship from dual citizens who left while the borders are closed and permanent residency from permanent residents who left the travel bubble in question (via NZ or not) means they don't have the right to come back into country and don't need to be quarantined and means taking fewer international arrivals other than essential arrivals.

Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton and some others have been playing politics too.

Purpose built quarantine facilities will be very different from multi-storey hotels, I have linked to a document about them.

The problem is not just ventilation of the units, it's in the corridors where there is isn't enough change of air. This caused an outbreak in Melbourne after someone who completed quarantine in Adelaide came to Melbourne. Fixing the ventilation issue is better than tightening internal restrictions (outside the hotels) let alone locking down.

There is land to build similar, or even better facilities even elsewhere in this country.

Vaccines are still only available to those 12 years of age and up, they still aren't available to all.

Quarantine has everything to do with what crosses our borders. The idea was only to quarantine international arrivals, there wasn't a need to quarantine interstate arrivals. So therefore the federal government alone needs to be in charge themselves, delegating this to states and territories is playing politics.

I don't believe quarantine of plants, pets or livestock has ever been political. Maritime quarantine of international arrivals was used here back in 1918 due to the Spanish flu.
Myrtone
So a cleaner catches a less infectious variant and takes it into the community? What do you think will eventually happen with Delta?

Nearly all our big airports are at big cities. Planes fly to them because of both the human and under floor cargo, flying people to the middle of no where has numerous issues including starting with with air port facilities.

Stripping citizenship over this is not just plain dumb for even proposing it but up there with Dictatorship countries. Any PM who tried it would be out in a month.

People need to come and go for numerous reasons that are more than jusfiable even if you don't think so. While I agree with the holiday thing, there comes a time when even this for expats working OS this is no longer acceptable to stop. By and large most of the issue involves those who need to travel home either permanently or for supporting relatives in need.

No doubt, some are just playing it more.

You lock people up in a box hotel, then you get the outcome you deserve. Had the people been put in hotels with balconies and or windows, things maybe different. Anyway its a mior issue not worth $2B in spending. People stay in rooms, not corriodors. How many lock downs were caused by ventiliation?

Purpose built facilities are not required. We are now just weeks away from opening up and the goal of zero has been abandoned. Quarratine will shortly be pointless.

In Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne, land is neither freely available nor free and buying it with borrowed money is hardly smart. This is not Ebola, the taxpayer has other priorties.

The death rate of sub 12 year olds from CV-19 is not zero, but very very low. Not an issue.

One more time, how do you propose fed departments that have less than around 12,000 employees combined manage something that the states are doing with nearly 1m staff combined? No nurses, no Dr's....The feds paid for Howard Springs to be set up then handed over to the NT to run as they have the people to do so.

Plants are rarely political, the welfare of 100,000's of your citizens who either work OS or need to travel Os to support Australian business or valid reasons to support familiy member shouldn't be either.

What should have happened is that NSW refused to accept citizens from other states, likewise other states. This would ahve forced the state Premiers to be put on the shaming block to forced to act.

You imply the Feds should control Quarratine. But what if the Feds follow other countries and refuse to introduce Quarratine for their own people? Are the feds not taking ownership? Now if the states (some) then choose to intoduce Quarratine for their states which the state Premiers have the authority and resources to do so, then is it now the states issue?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Nearly all our big airports are at big cities. Planes fly to them because of both the human and under floor cargo, flying people to the middle of no where has numerous issues including starting with with air port facilities.
RTT_Rules
None except the Sydney airport are in the inner suburbs, all others are away from suburbia.

Stripping citizenship over this is not just plain dumb for even proposing it but up there with Dictatorship countries. Any PM who tried it would be out in a month.
RTT_Rules
It wouldn't be done to dual citizens or permanent residents who actually left under the most extraordinary circumstances, in which case they would be given permission to leave, only to those who left without permission.

People need to come and go for numerous reasons that are more than jusfiable even if you don't think so. While I agree with the holiday thing, there comes a time when even this for expats working OS this is no longer acceptable to stop. By and large most of the issue involves those who need to travel home either permanently or for supporting relatives in need.
RTT_Rules
The Morrison government has even been allowing business people to leave the country to attend conferences, do people really need to leave for that reason? Think about the option of video conferencing.

You lock people up in a box hotel, then you get the outcome you deserve. Had the people been put in hotels with balconies and or windows, things maybe different. Anyway its a mior issue not worth $2B in spending. People stay in rooms, not corriodors. How many lock downs were caused by ventiliation?
RTT_Rules
What happened in Adelaide back in May was that the virus went from one room to another because there was not enough of a change of air between when one door was open and another was open. It later caused a lockdown in another state.

Purpose built facilities are not required. We are now just weeks away from opening up and the goal of zero has been abandoned. Quarratine will shortly be pointless.
RTT_Rules
Queensland, South Australia, Northern Territory, Tasmania and Western Australia have not abandoned this goal. And how about continuing to quarantine unvaccinated arrivals?
Also, has the goal of zero really been abandoned altogether, there is a vaccine, and how about the goal of near universal vaccination?

In Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne, land is neither freely available nor free and buying it with borrowed money is hardly smart. This is not Ebola, the taxpayer has other priorties.
RTT_Rules
There is enough land for such facilities near both Melbourne and Brisbane airports. This is also not the regular yearly flu and much of the world has had to go into lockdown just so the hospitals can treat people.

The death rate of sub 12 year olds from CV-19 is not zero, but very very low. Not an issue.
RTT_Rules
But still, not opening up before the vaccine is available to them could keep the numbers lower and even maintain zero for longer in places that haven't abandoned elimination. By the way, another difference from the regular yearly flu is that people who recover from COVID-19 tend not to get it again.

Plants are rarely political, the welfare of 100,000's of your citizens who either work OS or need to travel Os to support Australian business or valid reasons to support familiy member shouldn't be either.
RTT_Rules
Do they really need to go just to attend conferences? Do they need to travel to COVID laden countries to attend weddings or even funerals?

You imply the Feds should control Quarratine. But what if the Feds follow other countries and refuse to introduce Quarratine for their own people? Are the feds not taking ownership? Now if the states (some) then choose to intoduce Quarratine for their states which the state Premiers have the authority and resources to do so, then is it now the states issue?
RTT_Rules
We don't share land borders with any other country. We also stopped traffic from China quite early on. We closed our borders to the rest of the world at a point when most of our cases could still be traced to overseas travel. But we need a way of letting in those citizens and permanent residents who have a right to come home and that means quarantining of arrivals, this being better than locking down.
States did not choose to introduce quarantine, the federal government told them to do so.
As noted, we already had quarantine of plants, pets and livestock, in this case due to diseases rarer than COVID-19. If we have that, why would we refuse to introduce quarantine of people who have a right to enter when the rest of the world has an emergency situation with a much more common virus?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
From today's Age:

"Dozens of people have tested positive for COVID-19 after protesters attacked the CFMEU’s Melbourne headquarters last month, smashing windows and hurling abuse and projectiles.
Victorian secretary John Setka, who was the target of some of the vitriol, told the Today show it was “absolutely unforgivable” that the protesters had caused a coronavirus superspreader event.

Personally, I think [the protesters] don’t care,” he said. “I mean, it’s a pretty tragic set of circumstances where … dozens of kids and families have now been infected because of their reckless, moronic actions".

Wednesday - 1,420 cases in Vic and 11 deaths.


Mike.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

As for new quarantine facilities at Mickleham and Wellcamp - they'll make good prison camps for those who speak ill of Dan Andrews and Anna P respectively.
You're becoming monotonous.
Valvegear
Don't you see the sarcasm Wink

Although I find both Dan and Anna to be over-the-top in their heavy-handedness.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

From today's Age:

"Dozens of people have tested positive for COVID-19 after protesters attacked the CFMEU’s Melbourne headquarters last month, smashing windows and hurling abuse and projectiles.
Victorian secretary John Setka, who was the target of some of the vitriol, told the Today show it was “absolutely unforgivable” that the protesters had caused a coronavirus superspreader event.

Personally, I think [the protesters] don’t care,” he said. “I mean, it’s a pretty tragic set of circumstances where … dozens of kids and families have now been infected because of their reckless, moronic actions".

Wednesday - 1,420 cases in Vic and 11 deaths.


Mike.
The Vinelander
I wonder how many CFMEU members will be expelled over this?  Apparently they made up 85% of the protestors that day (with a few RWNJs egging them on).
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Get Covid and take it to South Australia?  The locals will fire-bomb your car:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-06/suspicious-car-fire-mount-gambier/100516822
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Although I find both Dan and Anna to be over-the-top in their heavy-handedness.
Carnot
Dan has been worse than "Anna" after allowing mismanagement of hotel quarantine and again after a delay on border closure. When compared to premier Macca, even Gladys has been over-the-top, apart from Western Australia's border restrictions, which perhaps should stay at least until the vaccine is available to all, including those in daycare.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
From today's Age:

"Dozens of people have tested positive for COVID-19 after protesters attacked the CFMEU’s Melbourne headquarters last month, smashing windows and hurling abuse and projectiles.
Victorian secretary John Setka, who was the target of some of the vitriol, told the Today show it was “absolutely unforgivable” that the protesters had caused a coronavirus superspreader event.

Personally, I think [the protesters] don’t care,” he said. “I mean, it’s a pretty tragic set of circumstances where … dozens of kids and families have now been infected because of their reckless, moronic actions".

Wednesday - 1,420 cases in Vic and 11 deaths.


Mike.
The Vinelander
Family and friends in the building game reporting chaos on site yesterday. People being denied access to site after turning up for work without proof of vax (with some claiming they had it Monday night.......), crews with staff not turning up as they won't get vaxxed, one smallish crew has 2 experience hands off to Qld to avoid the vax mandate and the list goes on

One person who I know indirectly who worked on large industry sites and was one of the protesters will not get vaxxed and so cannot work on any union sites anymore but has found work with a small firm. He will be taking quite a large pay cut in the process. He claims he is one of many in that situation

Expect labour shortages in the industry according to one manager I spoke to which may lead to delays and cost overruns on some projects and other smaller projects possibly getting canned
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Don't you see the sarcasm

Although I find both Dan and Anna to be over-the-top in their heavy-handedness.
"Carnot"
Your second sentence reinforces my point - you are monotonous.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

If someone who is permitted to live here is here when the borders are closed to the rest of the world, then it is their responsibility towards an entire nation to stay in this travel bubble unless leaving under the most extraordinary circumstances. These circumstances do not include attending conferences, weddings or even funerals.

Stripping citizenship from dual citizens who left while the borders are closed and permanent residency from permanent residents who left the travel bubble in question (via NZ or not) means they don't have the right to come back into country and don't need to be quarantined and means taking fewer international arrivals other than essential arrivals.

Quarantine has everything to do with what crosses our borders. The idea was only to quarantine international arrivals, there wasn't a need to quarantine interstate arrivals. So therefore the federal government alone needs to be in charge themselves, delegating this to states and territories is playing politics.
Stripping citizenship over this is not just plain dumb for even proposing it but up there with Dictatorship countries. Any PM who tried it would be out in a month.

People need to come and go for numerous reasons that are more than jusfiable even if you don't think so. While I agree with the holiday thing, there comes a time when even this for expats working OS this is no longer acceptable to stop. By and large most of the issue involves those who need to travel home either permanently or for supporting relatives in need.

Plants are rarely political, the welfare of 100,000's of your citizens who either work OS or need to travel Os to support Australian business or valid reasons to support familiy member shouldn't be either.
RTT_Rules

I have got news for you: No one in Australia cares about the rights of expats and people who choose to live and work overseas because Australia isn't good enough for them...in fact it's the opposite: people are quite happy to see other Australians stuck overseas if it means better border protection here during the pandemic.

You choose to live and work in the UAE: Human rights in the United Arab Emirates and are therefore complicit in your support for this barbaric backwards regime. Should we prioritise your ability to return to Australia? Frankly I don't think many would be sympathetic to you.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
From today's Age:

"Dozens of people have tested positive for COVID-19 after protesters attacked the CFMEU’s Melbourne headquarters last month, smashing windows and hurling abuse and projectiles.
Victorian secretary John Setka, who was the target of some of the vitriol, told the Today show it was “absolutely unforgivable” that the protesters had caused a coronavirus superspreader event.

Personally, I think [the protesters] don’t care,” he said. “I mean, it’s a pretty tragic set of circumstances where … dozens of kids and families have now been infected because of their reckless, moronic actions".

Wednesday - 1,420 cases in Vic and 11 deaths.


Mike.
Family and friends in the building game reporting chaos on site yesterday. People being denied access to site after turning up for work without proof of vax (with some claiming they had it Monday night.......), crews with staff not turning up as they won't get vaxxed, one smallish crew has 2 experience hands off to Qld to avoid the vax mandate and the list goes on

One person who I know indirectly who worked on large industry sites and was one of the protesters will not get vaxxed and so cannot work on any union sites anymore but has found work with a small firm. He will be taking quite a large pay cut in the process. He claims he is one of many in that situation

Expect labour shortages in the industry according to one manager I spoke to which may lead to delays and cost overruns on some projects and other smaller projects possibly getting canned
BrentonGolding
Well there ya go!! brain dead protesters have got Victoria to the situation that they are currently in, as Ray Hadley says, you can't put brains in Statues!.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

I have got news for you: No one in Australia cares about the rights of expats and people who choose to live and work overseas because Australia isn't good enough for them...in fact it's the opposite: people are quite happy to see other Australians stuck overseas if it means better border protection here during the pandemic.

You choose to live and work in the UAE: Human rights in the United Arab Emirates and are therefore complicit in your support for this barbaric backwards regime. Should we prioritise your ability to return to Australia? Frankly I don't think many would be sympathetic to you.
Mr. Lane
Mmm, considering your posts are usually fairly factual, don't you think this one is fairly arrogant/ignarant way of looking at it ?

How many Aussie's living OS do really feel "Australia isn't good enough for them"?

Answer, no where near as much as you think.

Expats are expats for a number of reasons
- Secondment by their employer to support Australia business whether it be ongoing or a product or project
- Aust/State Govt postings for diplmatic and trade
- Providing Technical support ie consulting to foreign companies or govt agencies, another word for this is EXPORT of Australian products
- Career development, usually in multi nationals moving personal from office to office to share and learn new ideas as well as to keep business practices more consistant across the network
- Foregn Aid worker / Teacher
- Family support
- Mixed marriage

As a starter, does any of this imply "Australia isn't good enough for them"?

What about Australian's who were part of industries that no longer exist and took OS job postings as an alternative to the dole queue or early retirement? This would include many from the former auto industry now working in SE Asia.

My neighbour is Australian ex-military, providng training to local forces. How many jobs are there in Australia for middle ranked career ex Army workers in proving technical military training on-shore?

The number I know of that would fit into your category of "Australia isn't good enough for them" and there are some (two are sort of friends) is usually very minor and and in most cases they have made moves to permanently move elsewhere and have PR and/or citizenship as they have no intention to go back.

Do you want to know how many contracts my employer this year has not got to Australian companies because their people cannot leave?

Do you want to know how many contracts my wife's Australian multi national employer has gone to non-Australian sector of the business because Australian's cannot leave?


What has the UAE got to do with it? This is a classic Don'ism.

Please tell us what YOU think is so barbaric about the UAE regime or what this has to do with returning Australians?

Would you like me to go through the employment conditions, starting at the bottom of the 7000 people who work for my employer? Would you like me to explain the aid these people got from my employer when locked out of the UAE upon sudden border closures last year? I'm aware of a few other companies details I could also share if you like?

Would you like to discuss the 10m's of CV-19 vaccines bought or made by UAE to provided to countries in Africa long before the UAE had controlled CV-19 in house, yet when Australia gave a few to PNG there was an outcry by Australians?


Did I ask you to priortise my return to Australia?
Have I have said in this group I needed to return?
Have I ever said I or my fellow Expats be returned at all costs?
Have I ever said Expats should get a free ride to return?


Mr Lane, the UAE is not perfect, far from it and why its not classified a "Developed Nation" (unless that has changed), mind yuo what else do you expect for a country that was just a handfull of desert villages as late as 1965? But this isn't about Australia vs the UAE, its about Australia looking after its own when off shore and needing to return as well as preventing Australian business from being stoped from operating off-shore, although having said that the UAE never blocked its citizens from returning. Frankly this was not one of your better postings.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I have got news for you: No one in Australia cares about the rights of expats and people who choose to live and work overseas because Australia isn't good enough for them...in fact it's the opposite: people are quite happy to see other Australians stuck overseas if it means better border protection here during the pandemic.

You choose to live and work in the UAE: Human rights in the United Arab Emirates and are therefore complicit in your support for this barbaric backwards regime. Should we prioritise your ability to return to Australia? Frankly I don't think many would be sympathetic to you.
"Mr.Lane"
Well at least you got the standard, long-winded, largely irrelevant answer which seems inevitable.
  303gunner Train Controller

One person who I know indirectly who worked on large industry sites and was one of the protesters will not get vaxxed and so cannot work on any union sites anymore but has found work with a small firm. He will be taking quite a large pay cut in the process. He claims he is one of many in that situation.
BrentonGolding
Naturally, he believes he is being victimised and that it is somebody else's fault?
  8502 Chief Train Controller

This is very concerning

  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

I have got news for you: No one in Australia cares about the rights of expats and people who choose to live and work overseas because Australia isn't good enough for them...in fact it's the opposite: people are quite happy to see other Australians stuck overseas if it means better border protection here during the pandemic.
Do you want to know how many contracts my employer this year has not got to Australian companies because their people cannot leave?

Do you want to know how many contracts my wife's Australian multi national employer has gone to non-Australian sector of the business because Australian's cannot leave?
RTT_Rules

You are completely out of touch with the average man and woman on the street in Australia.

People aren't thinking or care about multinational business deals in far away lands when the local small businesses in the two biggest cities can't even trade for months on end and people can't even legally meet their own family members.

And in the cities that aren't in lockdown...of damn well course they want to keep it that way.

What do you think the average Australian cares about? Twoish years of some lost business deals, or keeping tens of thousands of domestic business open and life continuing as normal?

If people were retrospectively able to vote on this issue in March 2020 I guarantee you people would vote to block ALL incoming travel for two years if it meant keeping the country without restrictions internally.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
One person who I know indirectly who worked on large industry sites and was one of the protesters will not get vaxxed and so cannot work on any union sites anymore but has found work with a small firm. He will be taking quite a large pay cut in the process. He claims he is one of many in that situation.
Naturally, he believes he is being victimised and that it is somebody else's fault?
303gunner
I assume so, that's the standard response isn't it?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
If people were retrospectively able to vote on this issue in March 2020 I guarantee you people would vote to block ALL incoming travel for two years if it meant keeping the country without restrictions internally.
Mr. Lane
Not all incoming travel given that citizens and permanent residents who are overseas do have a right to come home and many of us would actually want them to come home and stay home. But closing borders to others and being tough on people leaving the Trans Tasman bubble is preferred over locking down any part of the country.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
None except the Sydney airport are in the inner suburbs, all others are away from suburbia.
Myrtone
Brisbane Airport is a mere 11km from the GPO as the crow flies, 14km by road. I can't be bothered checking any others as this alone proves your ignorance. By comparison Sydney is 7.6km as the crow flies, 10km by road. Not much difference is there?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Though I have been to Brisbane before, I didn't realise Brisbane Airport was that close. The thing with the Sydney airport is that it is close enough to houses that there are restrictions on taking off and landing there. I have not heard of such restrictions at the Brisbane Airport. The Queensland government is also proposing a quarantine facility somewhere in Brisbane.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have got news for you: No one in Australia cares about the rights of expats and people who choose to live and work overseas because Australia isn't good enough for them...in fact it's the opposite: people are quite happy to see other Australians stuck overseas if it means better border protection here during the pandemic.

You choose to live and work in the UAE: Human rights in the United Arab Emirates and are therefore complicit in your support for this barbaric backwards regime. Should we prioritise your ability to return to Australia? Frankly I don't think many would be sympathetic to you.
Well at least you got the standard, long-winded, largely irrelevant answer which seems inevitable.
Valvegear
You are in Victoria? Probably best keep your head down for a while before critising others.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
You are in Victoria? Probably best keep your head down for a while before critising others.
RTT_Rules
Ho hum; more irrelevance (and you still can't spell). You're not all that bright, are you?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have got news for you: No one in Australia cares about the rights of expats and people who choose to live and work overseas because Australia isn't good enough for them...in fact it's the opposite: people are quite happy to see other Australians stuck overseas if it means better border protection here during the pandemic.
Do you want to know how many contracts my employer this year has not got to Australian companies because their people cannot leave?

Do you want to know how many contracts my wife's Australian multi national employer has gone to non-Australian sector of the business because Australian's cannot leave?

You are completely out of touch with the average man and woman on the street in Australia.

People aren't thinking or care about multinational business deals in far away lands when the local small businesses in the two biggest cities can't even trade for months on end and people can't even legally meet their own family members.

And in the cities that aren't in lockdown...of damn well course they want to keep it that way.

What do you think the average Australian cares about? Twoish years of some lost business deals, or keeping tens of thousands of domestic business open and life continuing as normal?

If people were retrospectively able to vote on this issue in March 2020 I guarantee you people would vote to block ALL incoming travel for two years if it meant keeping the country without restrictions internally.
Mr. Lane
You are corect, people are not thinking, that's very obvious. We tell that to the other expats who have far stronger views on this than me. The whatsapp and FB $hit fights between Aussies (and Kiwis) who understand the reason why and those who just don't give a F k. Many a friendship has been lost over the border issue as people have their own reasons to want to return "to get a hug".

Correct, the man on the street doesn't think, a few examples come to mind. Hence govt which has much greater resources and you would think people who are in the actual know should be doing the thinking for them.

Don't disgaree on the voting thing. I'm sure if the various govts could restrospectively make changes to the way returnees were managed in country, choice of vaccines etc etc based on hindsight, they would have.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You are in Victoria? Probably best keep your head down for a while before critising others.
Ho hum; more irrelevance (and you still can't spell). You're not all that bright, are you?
Valvegear
Is that you appling the "Gold Standard"? Nothing revelent to add or say, so pull a Don and make a personal insult?

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