Melbourne Metro tunnel 2

 
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sunbury, Vic
Why has this thread not died, last post August 2020.

Until the government drops some breadcrumbs its all just foam, lots of foam, 12 pages of nothing but foam.

Lockie

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  Jordy33 Locomotive Driver

There’s still much that can be discussed.

For example, would only running Mernda, and Werribee/Laverton line through MM2 be a waste? That’s likely only going to need 12TPH each way.
  8502 Assistant Commissioner

The PTUA has been on the front foot this week with their idea of what MM2 should look like.

The Metro 2 proposal would see Mernda trains instead run via a new tunnel to Flagstaff and Southern Cross, then to Newport to connect with the Werribee line. It would boost capacity, speed up journeys and provide trains to Fitzroy, Parkville and Fishermans Bend.
PTUA



Where would the Inner North station be best located?
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

I have always thought a station between Brunswick Street and Smith Street along Johnston street was the optimal location for a station as it is smack bang in the middle of the busiest part of the precinct and station exits could be built directly onto Brunswick and Smith Streets at each end.

However, if it is joining to Clifton Hill and not Victoria Park (as was mooted back in the Doncaster line speculation days) then I would say somewhere around the intersection between Brunswick Street and Alexandra Parade. There is room at Reyes Park for a work site plus room in the median strip. It is a pretty straight tunnel from Parkville station at Grattan Street to Clifton Hill through here.
  8502 Assistant Commissioner

It is my hope the government will announce MM2 as a component of the election campaign promises.  If it is announced then I sincerely hope the network is built to the fullest and it end to end and properly integrated with the current network.  I was hoping for the people of Doncaster then line would continue via Clifton Hill to Doncaster via Balwyn.

Is there a chance this project will be approved?

I even think they should leave the TBM's in the ground and them once the spade work is completed they could then restart the machine and continue building.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sunbury, Vic
It is my hope the government will announce MM2 as a component of the election campaign promises.  If it is announced then I sincerely hope the network is built to the fullest and it end to end and properly integrated with the current network.  I was hoping for the people of Doncaster then line would continue via Clifton Hill to Doncaster via Balwyn.

Is there a chance this project will be approved?

I even think they should leave the TBM's in the ground and them once the spade work is completed they could then restart the machine and continue building.
8502
I very much doubt it, this isn't 2016 or even 2012 when the worries of debit were no where to be seen. The political equation is much tighter now. Let's say we hadn't had a pandemic and had to borrow billions to keep the economy ticking over and stop the country turning on its self. Announcing a $15 Billion new inner city tunnel would have the inner city voters lining up, unfortunately this isn't the case this election.

SRL, Geelong, MARL and the later stages of MM1 are all going to drain the budget of billions over the next few years; adding more would allow the liberals to paint the government as financially reckless, one of their favourite past times. MM2 will sit on the back burner until the full suite of works from MM1 are completed, these yet to be funded projects are critical to increasing capacity on the Northern Group and Frankston once MM1 comes online. A few smaller scales projects, rounding out the puzzle.

Once MM1 is finished, MARL is nearing completion and SRL has TBM's in the ground the government of the day will be able to go and announce this project. Won't be 2022, maybe 2026 (I doubt Dan will be running). If the liberals get in (likely even if things are going well. Voters like a change), it will be 2032 before an announcement so we are looking at a start date of 2034/5 if you're lucky. If we are ridding on MM2 by 2050, this will be a good outcome.

Lockie
  Tii Chief Train Controller

It is my hope the government will announce MM2 as a component of the election campaign promises.  If it is announced then I sincerely hope the network is built to the fullest and it end to end and properly integrated with the current network.  I was hoping for the people of Doncaster then line would continue via Clifton Hill to Doncaster via Balwyn.

Is there a chance this project will be approved?

I even think they should leave the TBM's in the ground and them once the spade work is completed they could then restart the machine and continue building.
I very much doubt it, this isn't 2016 or even 2012 when the worries of debit were no where to be seen. The political equation is much tighter now. Let's say we hadn't had a pandemic and had to borrow billions to keep the economy ticking over and stop the country turning on its self. Announcing a $15 Billion new inner city tunnel would have the inner city voters lining up, unfortunately this isn't the case this election.

SRL, Geelong, MARL and the later stages of MM1 are all going to drain the budget of billions over the next few years; adding more would allow the liberals to paint the government as financially reckless, one of their favourite past times. MM2 will sit on the back burner until the full suite of works from MM1 are completed, these yet to be funded projects are critical to increasing capacity on the Northern Group and Frankston once MM1 comes online. A few smaller scales projects, rounding out the puzzle.

Once MM1 is finished, MARL is nearing completion and SRL has TBM's in the ground the government of the day will be able to go and announce this project. Won't be 2022, maybe 2026 (I doubt Dan will be running). If the liberals get in (likely even if things are going well. Voters like a change), it will be 2032 before an announcement so we are looking at a start date of 2034/5 if you're lucky. If we are ridding on MM2 by 2050, this will be a good outcome.

Lockie
Lockie91
Unfortunately that all makes sense- the lack of funds, will and the politics stall Australia's progress again. I won't live to see it but I still hope it happens before 2050.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
It is my hope the government will announce MM2 as a component of the election campaign promises.  If it is announced then I sincerely hope the network is built to the fullest and it end to end and properly integrated with the current network.  I was hoping for the people of Doncaster then line would continue via Clifton Hill to Doncaster via Balwyn.

Is there a chance this project will be approved?

I even think they should leave the TBM's in the ground and them once the spade work is completed they could then restart the machine and continue building.
I very much doubt it, this isn't 2016 or even 2012 when the worries of debit were no where to be seen. The political equation is much tighter now. Let's say we hadn't had a pandemic and had to borrow billions to keep the economy ticking over and stop the country turning on its self. Announcing a $15 Billion new inner city tunnel would have the inner city voters lining up, unfortunately this isn't the case this election.

SRL, Geelong, MARL and the later stages of MM1 are all going to drain the budget of billions over the next few years; adding more would allow the liberals to paint the government as financially reckless, one of their favourite past times. MM2 will sit on the back burner until the full suite of works from MM1 are completed, these yet to be funded projects are critical to increasing capacity on the Northern Group and Frankston once MM1 comes online. A few smaller scales projects, rounding out the puzzle.

Once MM1 is finished, MARL is nearing completion and SRL has TBM's in the ground the government of the day will be able to go and announce this project. Won't be 2022, maybe 2026 (I doubt Dan will be running). If the liberals get in (likely even if things are going well. Voters like a change), it will be 2032 before an announcement so we are looking at a start date of 2034/5 if you're lucky. If we are ridding on MM2 by 2050, this will be a good outcome.

Lockie
Lockie91
MM2 planning could be funded to allow for constrcution to start after MM1and MARL are finished.
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
I think what Lockie says about the money is spot on really - there's so much in the pipeline that MM2 just gets squeezed out.

I think the only chance it happens is if the feds come swinging past with $5Bn or something towards "Geelong fast rail" that delivers a tunnel from Newport to SCS (or maybe even through to Parkville: we can hope).

Then you've only got the smaller part to finish through to Clifton Hill once somebody can stump up the cash.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sunbury, Vic
I think what Lockie says about the money is spot on really - there's so much in the pipeline that MM2 just gets squeezed out.

I think the only chance it happens is if the feds come swinging past with $5Bn or something towards "Geelong fast rail" that delivers a tunnel from Newport to SCS (or maybe even through to Parkville: we can hope).

Then you've only got the smaller part to finish through to Clifton Hill once somebody can stump up the cash.
LeroyW
I detest Geelong FR, what a stupid project. However the more pressing need is in the west. If GFR is to proceed then a tunnel between Newport and Southern Cross is pushed higher up the agenda. If the feds are willing to chip in we might see part one built first to allow Geelong/Laverton Services terminate at a new underground Southern Cross station. There is no pressing need to complete the project to Clifton Hill for sometime.

Simple rationalisation of the junction and clean up of timetables is the first step to increasing services, secondly is CBTC Moving Block Signalling (HCS) between Clifton Hill and Flinders Street to squeeze every path out of this section of line.

PTV/DOT put a $15B price tag on MM2, it is going to remain dead in the water for sometime.

Lockie
  John.Z Deputy Commissioner

I detest Geelong FR, what a stupid project. However the more pressing need is in the west. If GFR is to proceed then a tunnel between Newport and Southern Cross is pushed higher up the agenda. If the feds are willing to chip in we might see part one built first to allow Geelong/Laverton Services terminate at a new underground Southern Cross station. There is no pressing need to complete the project to Clifton Hill for sometime.

Simple rationalisation of the junction and clean up of timetables is the first step to increasing services, secondly is CBTC Moving Block Signalling (HCS) between Clifton Hill and Flinders Street to squeeze every path out of this section of line.

PTV/DOT put a $15B price tag on MM2, it is going to remain dead in the water for sometime.

Lockie
Lockie91
The priority out west needs to be quad track to Melton and electrification to at least Bacchus Marsh and Lara (new terminating stations for Metro). The problem is between Sunshine and the City. In the short term, I would run them via Metro 1 to Westall and RRL terminating at Spencer St. In the long term, those two lines should be their own track pair into/across the city.

Geelong and Werribee to Spencer St via stage 1 of a metro 2 could come next, that would free up some more room for trains between sunshine and the city (see above). Focus on getting 30tph between Clifton Hill and the City (or as close as possible) for now to save some cash, then when the time is right build the second stage of metro 2.

When Dandenong is inevitably quadded, because of freight/express/vline trains heading out that way, they're gonna have to extend Metro 1 from Domain to Caulfield (assuming you can't fit 6 tracks in the current alignment). Caulfield station is due for redevelopment, I would keep the station buildings for heritage purposes and build it as "skyrail". No station at south yarra makes that a very easy decision. Can put one in at Windsor or Balaclava if needed.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
.....
When Dandenong is inevitably quadded, because of freight/express/vline trains heading out that way, they're gonna have to extend Metro 1 from Domain to Caulfield (assuming you can't fit 6 tracks in the current alignment).
John.Z
Please explain!

With Metro running express Caulfield to Anzac
and V/Line running express Caulfield to Richmond
using HCS
why would you ever need 4 tracks ?
  John.Z Deputy Commissioner

Please explain!

With Metro running express Caulfield to Anzac
and V/Line running express Caulfield to Richmond
using HCS
why would you ever need 4 tracks ?
justarider
Metro 1 running 6-10tph each to Cranbourne (or extended further), Rowville and Frankston/Stony Point

Express Track Pair running 6-10tph to Pakenham, 3-4tph to Warrigal (express to Pakenham), 2-3tph to Traralgon/Sale/Bairnsdale (express to Warrigal), plus freight to the new container port at Dandenong South.

Not saying it is justified right now, but by 2050 with the SRL up and running I think it will be.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Please explain!

With Metro running express Caulfield to Anzac
and V/Line running express Caulfield to Richmond
using HCS
why would you ever need 4 tracks ?
Metro 1 running 6-10tph each to Cranbourne (or extended further), Rowville and Frankston/Stony Point

Express Track Pair running 6-10tph to Pakenham, 3-4tph to Warrigal (express to Pakenham), 2-3tph to Traralgon/Sale/Bairnsdale (express to Warrigal), plus freight to the new container port at Dandenong South.

Not saying it is justified right now, but by 2050 with the SRL up and running I think it will be.
John.Z
Well Frankston via MM1 is a new one. And Rowville too.  So now we have 4 tracks between FSS and Sth Yarra with SFA to do.

But there's more because you want another tunnel to Caulfield.
So now there's those 4 tracks between Sth Yarra and Caulfield , just to serve MATHS SAS. Talk about overkill.

Still havent explained with up to 30tph running express between Caulfield and Anzac/Richmond, with NO SAS getting in the way,
why you need more than 2 tracks for Pakenham etc on that stretch.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Please explain!

With Metro running express Caulfield to Anzac
and V/Line running express Caulfield to Richmond
using HCS
why would you ever need 4 tracks ?
Metro 1 running 6-10tph each to Cranbourne (or extended further), Rowville and Frankston/Stony Point

Express Track Pair running 6-10tph to Pakenham, 3-4tph to Warrigal (express to Pakenham), 2-3tph to Traralgon/Sale/Bairnsdale (express to Warrigal), plus freight to the new container port at Dandenong South.

Not saying it is justified right now, but by 2050 with the SRL up and running I think it will be.
John.Z
More likely you'd have Cranbourne (including Clyde)/Dandenong/Pakenham (30tph total) running via MM1, with Warragul/Traralgon/Bairnsdale/Freight (15-20tph total) using the existing express pair and Frankston using the existing SAS pair as now (20tph total).
  John.Z Deputy Commissioner

Well Frankston via MM1 is a new one. And Rowville too.  So now we have 4 tracks between FSS and Sth Yarra with SFA to do.
justarider
Rowville isn't new. It's on the PTV network development plan.

And having a rail line between Dandenong and Frankston isn't new either, that's been in government documents since operation phoenix.

The idea is that you can travel between Frankston and Dandenong by train, and also gives paths for Stony Point trains to get into the city (might even encourage some development down that way, at least as far as Hastings).

Linking Dandenong and Frankston doesn't mean the exisiting Frankston Line has "SFA to do", and neither does giving Dandenong/Warrigal/Traralgon passengers express tracks into the city. The Belgrave/Lilydale line passengers seem to enjoy it.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Well Frankston via MM1 is a new one. And Rowville too.  So now we have 4 tracks between FSS and Sth Yarra with SFA to do.
Rowville isn't new. It's on the PTV network development plan.

And having a rail line between Dandenong and Frankston isn't new either, that's been in government documents since operation phoenix.

The idea is that you can travel between Frankston and Dandenong by train, and also gives paths for Stony Point trains to get into the city (might even encourage some development down that way, at least as far as Hastings).

Linking Dandenong and Frankston doesn't mean the exisiting Frankston Line has "SFA to do", and neither does giving Dandenong/Warrigal/Traralgon passengers express tracks into the city. The Belgrave/Lilydale line passengers seem to enjoy it.
John.Z
Warragul in Gippsland is spelt as WARRAGUL.  Warrigal as in Warrigal Road is spelt WARRIGAL.
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
This has gotten a little bit off topic, so I'll loop around and tie it back to the thread title...

Pre MM1 you essentially had two track pairs from Richmond: one to Frankston and one to  Dandenong. There was a mess at the city end, because both these pairs tried to end up in the same loop tunnel, with excess going direct to FSS.

MM1 sorts out this mess - it gives the two incoming track pairs each their own, dedicated path through the city. But it does nothing for capacity beyond South Yarra, where we still effectively have two track pairs. Building MM1 to Caulfield still doesn't solve anything, because ultimately beyond Caulfield it's still just the two track pairs.

If we can squeeze 30 tph out of our infrastructure then we don't need any more track until capacity is exceeded, by which time the only real solution is to extend MM1 to Caulfield and quad all the way to Dandenong.  Unless we want to spend billions giving country folk a fast express ride into the city.

Which brings us to MM2...

Until all of the West, including VLine, can generate more than maybe 70 tph in peak (on the 3 track pairs in from Footscray) then we're not really solving a capacity problem on that side.  We're providing rail to Fisherman's Bend and an express trip for Geelong folk.  Clifton Hill end is a bit of a different story, as that does unlock core capacity, but with HCMT and better signalling, we can move thousands more before it's really needed.

So I'm really left hoping that all the seats out Geelong way go marginal and look like deciding an election, because then there might be some cash to throw at the tunnel.
  John.Z Deputy Commissioner

This has gotten a little bit off topic, so I'll loop around and tie it back to the thread title...

Pre MM1 you essentially had two track pairs from Richmond: one to Frankston and one to  Dandenong. There was a mess at the city end, because both these pairs tried to end up in the same loop tunnel, with excess going direct to FSS.

MM1 sorts out this mess - it gives the two incoming track pairs each their own, dedicated path through the city. But it does nothing for capacity beyond South Yarra, where we still effectively have two track pairs. Building MM1 to Caulfield still doesn't solve anything, because ultimately beyond Caulfield it's still just the two track pairs.

If we can squeeze 30 tph out of our infrastructure then we don't need any more track until capacity is exceeded, by which time the only real solution is to extend MM1 to Caulfield and quad all the way to Dandenong.  Unless we want to spend billions giving country folk a fast express ride into the city.

Which brings us to MM2...

Until all of the West, including VLine, can generate more than maybe 70 tph in peak (on the 3 track pairs in from Footscray) then we're not really solving a capacity problem on that side.  We're providing rail to Fisherman's Bend and an express trip for Geelong folk.  Clifton Hill end is a bit of a different story, as that does unlock core capacity, but with HCMT and better signalling, we can move thousands more before it's really needed.

So I'm really left hoping that all the seats out Geelong way go marginal and look like deciding an election, because then there might be some cash to throw at the tunnel.
LeroyW
The western side needs to be sorted out before any quadding to dandenong imo. Think it will end up happening like that anyway so moot point. Metro 2 and taking Geelong off the RRL gives enough paths for Melton and WV sparks into the city for the time being, pushing back any need for another track pair between sunshine and the city (which imo should go via Braybrook/Highpoint etc, but again that's another discussion for another day in a metro 3 thread Surprised). Metro 1 does enough for the time being too for dandenong/frankston line capacity. SRL will induce some demand so be interesting to see what's needed post that.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Perhaps it is time the Feds got behind this project?

  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Perhaps it is time the Feds got behind this project?

bevans
Feds have offered Dan $ 260m towards grade separation of the level crossing at Glenferrie Road at Kooyong, BUT Chairman Dan is playing politics in refusing to put on his program at this stage.  Whilst this should be a high priority crossing to eliminate as train/tram it will be a hard one to execute as Kooyong station has to be re-located and the new station has to have  straight platforms. Probably parked in the RPV  "Too Hard Basket" at this stage.  The Feds $ 260m will still be there when and if Chairman Dan gets around to it.
  John E Locomotive Driver

Just because the feds came with a bag of cash doesn't mean Glenferrie road should get done before other LX for all the reasons you mentioned.
This was a very political play by Frydenburg at the last election to shore up votes in Kooyong.
They couldn't provide cash to support the current program - no it had to be their own idea and it had to be in a trench because 'sky rail is bad!
  John E Locomotive Driver

Same goes for the $3B available for East West Link- classic politics.
At least there is agreement on Airport Rail.
Yes Andrews is guilty of this behaviour too.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Same goes for the $3B available for East West Link- classic politics.
At least there is agreement on Airport Rail.
Yes Andrews is guilty of this behaviour too.
John E

That $3b is NEVER going to win the libs an election in Victoria.  

There is also the Geelong funding which has not yet been accessed?

There is the Ballarat Intermodal terminal funding not yet used.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Technically the full statement is not exactly entirely accurate, the feds did play a role with the LXRP funding, although not a major role.

1) Main road St Albans is 50% fed funded.
2) The leasing off the Port of Melbourne, allowed more fed money to go towards the state due to that deal which made a significant portion of infrastructure to be funded (which includes the LXRP). It's not directly contributing in this case yes but it's one of major sources of funding the original 50 crossings, as it allowed more money to the state coffers to fund the project.

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