Greater Parramatta proposed as future HSR hub

 
  Yappo Train Controller

SMH article yesterday refers to a confidential cabinet document which recommendations a future HSR hub be located in Greater Parra. Key interchange also proposed for Epping and Campbelltown/Mac. It reportedly states that direct services between Parra and Newcastle would be 1 hr and only 25 mins between Parra and Gosford.

The inference seems to be that there would be no HSR to/from Central. If correct, you'd take the metro to either Epping or Parramatta to take a HSR service. Note that it hasn't been considered by Cabinet as yet so it could just end up being a thought bubble.

Greater Parra could mean anything from Westmead to Parramatta to even potentially a Olympic Park location?

'Radically faster': Parramatta at centre of NSW's high-speed rail future 11/05/22 Greater Parramatta has been singled out as the location for a major hub for dedicated fast rail lines connecting Sydney to Newcastle, Wollongong and the state’s west as part of long-term plans to boost public transport links. A confidential cabinet document – obtained by the Herald and Nine News – also names Epping and an area around Campbelltown and Macarthur as sites for “key interchanges” to link the fast-rail lines to Sydney’s suburban rail network.

The draft strategy says a major fast-rail hub in greater Parramatta would deliver “easy access” to employment centres and health and education precincts. It lays out a need to boost public transport links between Sydney and large population centres in Wollongong, the Central Coast and Newcastle. “The transformation will include both new, dedicated fast rail lines to enable train speeds of up to 250 kilometres per hour, and improvements to the existing network to increase speeds on those sections to a maximum of 160 kilometres per hour,” it says.

The 320-page strategy by Transport for NSW cautions that dedicated fast rail lines would need to be built in sections over two to three decades “given the scale of the task”. The cost of building a fast rail line between Sydney and Newcastle alone has been estimated to run into the tens of billions of dollars. The Future Transport Strategy: Towards 2061 strategy estimates fast-rail trains will slash travel times between greater Parramatta and Newcastle from 2½ hours to an hour, and result in a 25-minute journey from Parramatta to Gosford. It also makes mention of a fast-rail line between Parramatta and Canberra, which could more than halve travel times to 90 minutes.

Infrastructure, Cities and Active Transport Minister Rob Stokes insisted the confidential document was yet to be considered or endorsed by government, but added that Parramatta could one day be the heart of greater Sydney. “Just as St Pancras Station is at the heart of Greater London, a transport interchange near Parramatta could be at the heart of our city region,” he said. Labor leader Chris Minns was sceptical of any plan for fast rail across NSW when the government was struggling to run the existing train network. “Most communities don’t have regular trains let alone yet another thought bubble from the NSW government,” he said.

The fast-rail ambitions in the strategic document – dated February this year – come almost three years after a British rail expert commissioned by the government completed a report into options for faster rail in NSW. Professor Andrew McNaughton’s report has never been released publicly.
SMH


This is disclosed the same day as a new Parramatta City plan was approved.

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  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
SMH article yesterday refers to a confidential cabinet document which recommendations a future HSR hub be located in Greater Parra. Key interchange also proposed for Epping and Campbelltown/Mac. It reportedly states that direct services between Parra and Newcastle would be 1 hr and only 25 mins between Parra and Gosford.

The inference seems to be that there would be no HSR to/from Central. If correct, you'd take the metro to either Epping or Parramatta to take a HSR service. Note that it hasn't been considered by Cabinet as yet so it could just end up being a thought bubble.

Greater Parra could mean anything from Westmead to Parramatta to even potentially a Olympic Park location?

'Radically faster': Parramatta at centre of NSW's high-speed rail future 11/05/22 Greater Parramatta has been singled out as the location for a major hub for dedicated fast rail lines connecting Sydney to Newcastle, Wollongong and the state’s west as part of long-term plans to boost public transport links. A confidential cabinet document – obtained by the Herald and Nine News – also names Epping and an area around Campbelltown and Macarthur as sites for “key interchanges” to link the fast-rail lines to Sydney’s suburban rail network.

The draft strategy says a major fast-rail hub in greater Parramatta would deliver “easy access” to employment centres and health and education precincts. It lays out a need to boost public transport links between Sydney and large population centres in Wollongong, the Central Coast and Newcastle. “The transformation will include both new, dedicated fast rail lines to enable train speeds of up to 250 kilometres per hour, and improvements to the existing network to increase speeds on those sections to a maximum of 160 kilometres per hour,” it says.

The 320-page strategy by Transport for NSW cautions that dedicated fast rail lines would need to be built in sections over two to three decades “given the scale of the task”. The cost of building a fast rail line between Sydney and Newcastle alone has been estimated to run into the tens of billions of dollars. The Future Transport Strategy: Towards 2061 strategy estimates fast-rail trains will slash travel times between greater Parramatta and Newcastle from 2½ hours to an hour, and result in a 25-minute journey from Parramatta to Gosford. It also makes mention of a fast-rail line between Parramatta and Canberra, which could more than halve travel times to 90 minutes.

Infrastructure, Cities and Active Transport Minister Rob Stokes insisted the confidential document was yet to be considered or endorsed by government, but added that Parramatta could one day be the heart of greater Sydney. “Just as St Pancras Station is at the heart of Greater London, a transport interchange near Parramatta could be at the heart of our city region,” he said. Labor leader Chris Minns was sceptical of any plan for fast rail across NSW when the government was struggling to run the existing train network. “Most communities don’t have regular trains let alone yet another thought bubble from the NSW government,” he said.

The fast-rail ambitions in the strategic document – dated February this year – come almost three years after a British rail expert commissioned by the government completed a report into options for faster rail in NSW. Professor Andrew McNaughton’s report has never been released publicly.


This is disclosed the same day as a new Parramatta City plan was approved.

Yappo
This is complete and utter BS.  To suggest that a so called HSR wouldn't connect directly with the Sydney CBD beggars belief.  Even more ludicrous is suggesting Epping as a stop to interchange to the metro.  A HSR service, if it ever eventuates, which I doubt, would be a premium service charging premium fares, and the Sydney CBD would be the dominant destination.  Being forced to interchange to the metro, or even Sydney Trains at Epping or Parramatta, to complete the journey to the CBD is laughable.
  Griffinrails Official Junior Train Controller

Location: Dunno. (help i'm lost)
Where the hell would it even go?
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Where the hell would it even go?
Griffinrails Official
The only option would be to bury it all.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I think realistically not operating to Central was always on the cards, the cost of the line from north and south going to Central is $10's Billions vs Greater Paramatta.

Additionally if the HSR runs to Paramatta it can be eventually a through service, not terminating which reduces the amount of infrastructure required.

And if done at Central, where does everything go?
Does existing Central have sufficent space on the surface?
What needs to be built underground?
How does this compete with future Metro projects?
Servicing?

For the line going to the South, the line needs to be UG from Central to west of East Hills area.

On the north side, heading from Central, it has to run west for a period prior to heading north.
  viaprojects Assistant Commissioner

SMH article yesterday refers to a confidential cabinet document which recommendations a future HSR hub be located in Greater Parra.
Yappo


slow news day for an old document to be classes as current ... most of the development plans by parramatta council are almost finished .. any thing state or fed are +10 years too slow .. only thing fast tracked is the museum and the new hole for the metro .. an the opening of church st to traffic in a week after light rail works ..
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

SMH article yesterday refers to a confidential cabinet document which recommendations a future HSR hub be located in Greater Parra. Key interchange also proposed for Epping and Campbelltown/Mac. It reportedly states that direct services between Parra and Newcastle would be 1 hr and only 25 mins between Parra and Gosford.

The inference seems to be that there would be no HSR to/from Central. If correct, you'd take the metro to either Epping or Parramatta to take a HSR service. Note that it hasn't been considered by Cabinet as yet so it could just end up being a thought bubble.

Greater Parra could mean anything from Westmead to Parramatta to even potentially a Olympic Park location?
Yappo
1 hour to Newcastle, can't wait to take the High Speed Train to Broadmeadow, might be hungry after travelling that fast, so I'll head to the closest food joint to the station when I get off the train, and that would be a.... drive-thru only KFC, well I guess that wouldn't work out, well at least I've travelled from Sydney to Newcastle in an hour so now I'll just connect to my final destination within Newcastle and that will only take.... 2 hours on local public transport.

In all seriousness, I've talked about HSR before for Australia...and how it's not going to magically allow people to commute from outlying areas to Sydney, it's not going to solve the housing crisis, it's not going to lower the cost of living etc, it's not going to give people a choice in where they live, etc.... like all the mumbo jumbo that they tell us it's going to do.

NSW is stuck on a Singapore-mentality, thinking that Sydney is a city-state and there is nothing outside to invest in, and I challenge anyone to find me an example of a HSR line linking up with somewhere as car-dependant and unwelcoming to train passengers as Newcastle.

Not going to Central makes it even worse since one of the significant benefits to rail travel is usually the CBD to CBD convenience, Parramatta is still okay I guess being our second CBD, but I certainly hope they chose to connect it to the existing station and not the Metro station, as the existing station has better connections.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

At some stage, HSR may become a reality. Using Parramatta as that hub, given the population is moving to SW and NW of the CBD makes sense. Imagine tunneling under the Sydney cbd in 20 years time.
  Griffinrails Official Junior Train Controller

Location: Dunno. (help i'm lost)
Where the hell would it even go?
The only option would be to bury it all.
Probably wiser to bury the plan instead!
Griffinrails Official
just need a few billion to do either option ..
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
I think realistically not operating to Central was always on the cards, the cost of the line from north and south going to Central is $10's Billions vs Greater Paramatta.

Additionally if the HSR runs to Paramatta it can be eventually a through service, not terminating which reduces the amount of infrastructure required.

And if done at Central, where does everything go?
Does existing Central have sufficent space on the surface?
What needs to be built underground?
How does this compete with future Metro projects?
Servicing?

For the line going to the South, the line needs to be UG from Central to west of East Hills area.

On the north side, heading from Central, it has to run west for a period prior to heading north.
RTT_Rules
Nobody said it had to go to Central. Pretty much anywhere in the city is more useful than Parramatta.
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
At some stage, HSR may become a reality. Using Parramatta as that hub, given the population is moving to SW and NW of the CBD makes sense. Imagine tunneling under the Sydney cbd in 20 years time.
michaelgm
Given that tunneling under the Sydney CBD in 20 years is currently being seriously proposed by the Govt, I can imagine it perfectly fine.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Nobody said it had to go to Central. Pretty much anywhere in the city is more useful than Parramatta.
alleve
"Nobody", there are a few posts in this thread that said otherwise.

Parramatta will in about 20 years be a central hub for Sydney with easy access via DD/Metro rail to almost everywhere.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
At some stage, HSR may become a reality. Using Parramatta as that hub, given the population is moving to SW and NW of the CBD makes sense. Imagine tunneling under the Sydney cbd in 20 years time.
Given that tunneling under the Sydney CBD in 20 years is currently being seriously proposed by the Govt, I can imagine it perfectly fine.
alleve
The 20 year time frame basically means this thread belongs in the arm chair dreamers folder, because thats how serious it is at govt level.
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
Nobody said it had to go to Central. Pretty much anywhere in the city is more useful than Parramatta.
"Nobody", there are a few posts in this thread that said otherwise.

Parramatta will in about 20 years be a central hub for Sydney with easy access via DD/Metro rail to almost everywhere.
RTT_Rules
I stand corrected, one person (the original poster) mentioned Central before you made your post. Everyone else said Sydney CBD.

As plans currently exist, the only thing Parramatta will have access to in 20 years that Central won't is the Carlingford line. By contrast, the list of things that Central will have access to in 20 years but Parramatta won't includes but isn't limited to: the M1, T2, T4, T8, T9, SHL, CCN, SCO, L1, L2, L3, Regional trains, Regional coaches.

So no, in 20 years Parramatta won't be a central hub for Sydney, nor will it have access to almost everywhere. The central hub is Central. Revise that number to 50 years and maybe it'll be a different story
  Totoro Junior Train Controller

Parramatta is by far the most sensible Sydney location for a HSR hub extending to the north, south, and west. Compared to a Central/ Eastern CBD site, Parramatta has a number of advantages:

- Cost of any above ground land acquisition would be considerably less (granted most of it would have to be underground inside Sydney basin)
- It could allow HSR trains to run North-South, and/or transfer to Western HSR trains, with less/minimal backtracking
- Single transfer to MetroWest will provide direct 20 minute connection to Hunter St for those travelling to CBD, likely serving the majority of connecting travellers
- Single transfer to T1/T2/T5 will provide access to majority of high traffic suburban destinations
- Second transfer at Nth Strathfield (T9) or Hunter St/Wynyard (MetroNW/South, T8, etc) will connect to all other Sydney destinations.

This sounds pretty good imo. If a HSR station sits between the current HR and future MW station, we would have a second “Hunter St” style hub with HSR, Metro and HR all within very short walking distance.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Nobody said it had to go to Central. Pretty much anywhere in the city is more useful than Parramatta.
"Nobody", there are a few posts in this thread that said otherwise.

Parramatta will in about 20 years be a central hub for Sydney with easy access via DD/Metro rail to almost everywhere.
I stand corrected, one person (the original poster) mentioned Central before you made your post. Everyone else said Sydney CBD.

As plans currently exist, the only thing Parramatta will have access to in 20 years that Central won't is the Carlingford line. By contrast, the list of things that Central will have access to in 20 years but Parramatta won't includes but isn't limited to: the M1, T2, T4, T8, T9, SHL, CCN, SCO, L1, L2, L3, Regional trains, Regional coaches.

So no, in 20 years Parramatta won't be a central hub for Sydney, nor will it have access to almost everywhere. The central hub is Central. Revise that number to 50 years and maybe it'll be a different story
alleve
Not just 1.

Sydney CBD - Central is mostly the same thing. Do we need another 10 page debate on why its ok to have a station 2km from Central, but not Central?

L1 - L3  I doubt is a major reason to connect the HSR to Central

Likewise CCN, SHL etc all of which are a short connection away.

Again the others are a short connection away.

In 20 years if plans hold, Paramatta will have access to
- E-W services on M2 and T1 which gives easy access to T9
- Metro to Epping and gives easy access to M1
- Leppington which gives access to Bankstown and Macuthur etc etc.

Its a 2 seat journey from the plane to almost everywhere in Sydney, why does HSR have to be a single seat? Hell, to get to Town Hall or Martin Place, I change at Central rather than spend the time doing the circle.
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
- Single transfer to MetroWest will provide direct 20 minute connection to Hunter St for those travelling to CBD, likely serving the majority of connecting travellers
- Single transfer to T1/T2/T5 will provide access to majority of high traffic suburban destinations
- Second transfer at Nth Strathfield (T9) or Hunter St/Wynyard (MetroNW/South, T8, etc) will connect to all other Sydney destinations.
Totoro
How are any of these advantages over Central when Central
- has a much faster connection to Hunter St/Wynyard than Parramatta does
- also has a single transfer to the T1/T2 (the two of which serve the entirety of the T5)
- has a single transfer, not a second transfer, with both the T8 and T9
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
Nobody said it had to go to Central. Pretty much anywhere in the city is more useful than Parramatta.
"Nobody", there are a few posts in this thread that said otherwise.

Parramatta will in about 20 years be a central hub for Sydney with easy access via DD/Metro rail to almost everywhere.
I stand corrected, one person (the original poster) mentioned Central before you made your post. Everyone else said Sydney CBD.

As plans currently exist, the only thing Parramatta will have access to in 20 years that Central won't is the Carlingford line. By contrast, the list of things that Central will have access to in 20 years but Parramatta won't includes but isn't limited to: the M1, T2, T4, T8, T9, SHL, CCN, SCO, L1, L2, L3, Regional trains, Regional coaches.

So no, in 20 years Parramatta won't be a central hub for Sydney, nor will it have access to almost everywhere. The central hub is Central. Revise that number to 50 years and maybe it'll be a different story
Not just 1.

Sydney CBD - Central is mostly the same thing. Do we need another 10 page debate on why its ok to have a station 2km from Central, but not Central?

L1 - L3  I doubt is a major reason to connect the HSR to Central

Likewise CCN, SHL etc all of which are a short connection away.

Again the others are a short connection away.

In 20 years if plans hold, Paramatta will have access to
- E-W services on M2 and T1 which gives easy access to T9
- Metro to Epping and gives easy access to M1
- Leppington which gives access to Bankstown and Macuthur etc etc.

Its a 2 seat journey from the plane to almost everywhere in Sydney, why does HSR have to be a single seat? Hell, to get to Town Hall or Martin Place, I change at Central rather than spend the time doing the circle.
RTT_Rules
Parramatta isn't planned to have a metro connection to Epping in 20 years. All that's planned for 20 years in the WSA Metro, the Metro West, and there's a vague idea for it to extend south-east in 2041. As I said before, try changing the time frame a couple decades later and by then Parramatta might be a rail hub.

HSR doesn't have to be single seat, and sending it through the City wouldn't make it single seat. People getting off HSR would need to transfer, and the by far the best place to transfer is the City. Even Strathfield would be a better transfer point, between all the lines at the main station and the metro at Nth Strathfield. Strathfield also actually has a connection to Epping. Parramatta is just a worse option.
  Totoro Junior Train Controller

@alleve
You said:

How are any of these advantages over Central when Central
- has a much faster connection to Hunter St/Wynyard than Parramatta does
- also has a single transfer to the T1/T2 (the two of which serve the entirety of the T5)
- has a single transfer, not a second transfer, with both the T8 and T9”


The main advantage in all three cases is that Parramatta is the geographic/population-weighted centre of Sydney, thus closer to the mid-point for each of the lines above (excluding T8/T9), minimising any connecting journey for most people. If you are transferring to MW/T1/T2/T5 and going to a destination like Westmead, SOP, or Liverpool then you will be doing much less backtracking from Parramatta than you would have to do from, say, Central.

A Parramatta location would (possibly) allow for North-South through running of HSR services. So you could potentially travel on HSR from Wollongong and change at Epping for a Metro to Norwest or North Sydney. That’s 1 quick transfer. If arriving on the HSR from the North/South and wanting to go East/West of Parramatta, again that will be one quick interchange to HR or MW for the vast majority of people, and without any backtracking, regardless of where they’re going. By that point you will hopefully have Stage 2 of the Parra LR also completed, providing for even more interchange options for the high density suburbs along the river.

So yeah, in my view it makes sense to put any HSR hub at the geographic and population weighted centre of the city. I do support this idea, regardless of whether it happens. This is not a government policy yet as far as I know. And even if it was, a lot can change in 40 years.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Parramatta isn't planned to have a metro connection to Epping in 20 years. All that's planned for 20 years in the WSA Metro, the Metro West, and there's a vague idea for it to extend south-east in 2041. As I said before, try changing the time frame a couple decades later and by then Parramatta might be a rail hub.

HSR doesn't have to be single seat, and sending it through the City wouldn't make it single seat. People getting off HSR would need to transfer, and the by far the best place to transfer is the City. Even Strathfield would be a better transfer point, between all the lines at the main station and the metro at Nth Strathfield. Strathfield also actually has a connection to Epping. Parramatta is just a worse option.
alleve
I think the time frame and certainies for Epping Metro and many of the other pie in the sky projects including HSR are the same and needed to be treated the same.

I don't disagree it would be disirable to get to the city, the issue with Central / CBD is cost and physical access. The former is very high the later is complex and adds to cost. Additionally terminating stations are far more complex than through stations.

Personally I see all that is required is faster services to Canberra and Newcastle, both of which can be done with convential trains and existing but improved and in some areas realigned corridors. 2h to Newcastle and Canberra is more than doable with multi user track infrastructure and rolling stock rated to 200-220 km/h.

This will still require tunneling to by-pass the existing infrastructure for the inner suburban areas. ie East Hills in the south and Hornsby in the north.

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