New intercity commuter trains

 
  ANR Chief Commissioner

Those V-set seats look mighty comfortable in that mock up. At least they can be flipped towards the direction of travel.

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  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

Those that do don't have staff 24 hours.
alleve


under the wires passenger trains don't run 24 hours ..

7 news updated what the issue is about .. Union train upgrades to cost $1b: NSW govt 7NEWS  .. ie just open the window on the door ..
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
Those that do don't have staff 24 hours.


under the wires passenger trains don't run 24 hours ..

7 news updated what the issue is about .. Union train upgrades to cost $1b: NSW govt 7NEWS  .. ie just open the window on the door ..
viaprojects
I said 24 hours because that's how Transport for NSW refers to constantly staffed stations. Change the 24 for 21 or whatever amount of hours wired trains run if you want, it doesn't matter. The point doesn't change, most stations don't have staff and those that do don't have staff all day long.
  Totoro Junior Train Controller

When watching this news story together, my partner (who is not a train buff, but is a train commuter - ie just a normal member of the public), turned to me and said: “I don’t get the problem, don’t they already have someone watching from the platform”?? Lol.

Come to think of it, It would make a LOT more financial sense to simply employ ONE guard at all stations frequented by stopping NIFs, rather than to have to upend the entire operation model of the trains themselves. This would be a great way for the government to respond I think.


Or just hire new non-union drivers whose single function is to drive the NIFs.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller



Come to think of it, It would make a LOT more financial sense to simply employ ONE guard at all stations frequented by stopping NIFs, rather than to have to upend the entire operation model of the trains themselves. This would be a great way for the government to respond I think.
Totoro


government offered 2 guards for the start up period ..and rejected by the union .. union is trying to use old methods on new trains and not fix the curved platform issue for guards .. the newer trains don't have a guard in the middle of the train ..


Or just hire new non-union drivers whose single function is to drive the NIFs.
Totoro


union would shut down other sections of the rail system .. need a full work force of non-union staff to run the trains
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

How about we just replace some of the posters on here instead. There are some seriously deluded individuals on here.

The new trains are not metro trains with platforms setup to handle the lack of driver and guard. The ST network is pretty much the same as it was when it opened and no where near the capability of going without a guard. The new trains don't have any technology that would make the guard unneeded. If the government wants to save money then they should take a pay cut themselves and look at the fat cat upper management on ridiculous sums of money whose salaries could pay for 10 guards.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Come to think of it, It would make a LOT more financial sense to simply employ ONE guard at all stations frequented by stopping NIFs, rather than to have to upend the entire operation model of the trains themselves. This would be a great way for the government to respond I think.


Or just hire new non-union drivers whose single function is to drive the NIFs.
Totoro
Not that simple.

You wouldn't put a station guard at Tascot as an example and there are many more. But agree its about time these small stations need a major "enough" and change of strategy.

For example on the Central Coast (cannot speak for BMT or SCO as I'm not familiar with these), the following modernisation project needs desperately to occur.

1) All stations should be made 4 cars long
2) Move stations like Tascot off the curves, its like 100m south.
3) Operate the Sydney trains on fixed limited express timetable every 30min
4) Operate local's between Woy Woy and Morriset and again further north Fassifern to Newcastle interchange
Timetabled to meet the express services.

(I'd also extend Sydney Suburbans back to Cowan and eliminate this stop from CCN, but maintain Berowra).

ie stops
Central, Strat, Epping, Hornsby, Berowra, HR, Wonda (on request), WW, Gosford, Wyong, Morriset - Fassifern, Cardif, Broad, Newcastle junction. (I may have missed the odd one)

Achievements
- Eliminates guards
- Addresses most of union concerns
- Does not result in less staff
- Improves the level of service and likely increase users
- Reduces transit time for all services
- Brings in clockface timetabling off-peak
- Modernisation of the network rather than trying half arsed approach with modern trains on out dated infrastructure.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

What point is there to eliminating the guard? All it achieves is making someone unemployed and moved on to the dole.
  ANR Chief Commissioner

What point is there to eliminating the guard? All it achieves is making someone unemployed and moved on to the dole.
simstrain
I think it is impossible to eliminate the guard. It is so easy for someone to fall between the platform and the train at some stations. Is it possible for train drivers miss something on their monitor(s) in the moments that a train is stopped at the station? It just takes a split second. These NFI trains need to take whatever mods are needed to operate like any other train on the network - with a guard.
  Yellow_ Beginner

Location: Sydney
What point is there to eliminating the guard? All it achieves is making someone unemployed and moved on to the dole.
I think it is impossible to eliminate the guard. It is so easy for someone to fall between the platform and the train at some stations. Is it possible for train drivers miss something on their monitor(s) in the moments that a train is stopped at the station? It just takes a split second. These NFI trains need to take whatever mods are needed to operate like any other train on the network - with a guard.
ANR
It's not impossible, but it requires a lot more than just slamming a few CCTV cameras on a train and calling it a day. The problem with the intercity network is that a large amount of stations are unstaffed, have platforms that are curved and there are large gaps. If you were to have guardless trains you would need to have mostly straight platforms or platforms that have minimal gaps, as well as stations staff at every station that can monitor the train entering and departing. You also need to have an actual proper CCTV system that doesn't suffer from the blind spots, bad quality and no audio, such as found on the current NIF sets. It would be possible, however the cost would much outweigh than just leaving guards on trains. I had no idea what the government was thinking about this, but there now facing the truth on their dumb decisions.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What point is there to eliminating the guard? All it achieves is making someone unemployed and moved on to the dole.
simstrain
Its quite simple, its called cost reduction. Greater Sydney trains costs $2 extra for every $1 it earns. While the guards are not the cause of this every bit helps.

If this is the sole reason for not removing guards then lets put guards on the Metro, while we are there lets put a driver and what the hell lets put a fireman on every train as well and remove the automatic ticket machines, go back to manual sales only and remove the automatic ticket turnstyle to exit the station. Lets remove the automatic track machines and replace it with what used to be migratant workers with a shovel.

Back to reality, the interurban stations need modernising, we shouldn't continue to accept the need to have someone stick their head out the door as the only means of safety but doesn't actually even provide a robust level of safety as the guard cannot see the whole train from the door at these curve stations.

A CCN train annoucement
If using these stations, be in X, Y, Z carriage
But if these other stations then carriage W
And at this station front or rear four cars.

The annoucements take too long and at times confusing.

Main stations full train length, minor stations 4 cars, straight or almost platforms. Tascot is on a reasonable curve with the north bound train in a cutting.
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
Come to think of it, It would make a LOT more financial sense to simply employ ONE guard at all stations frequented by stopping NIFs, rather than to have to upend the entire operation model of the trains themselves. This would be a great way for the government to respond I think.
Totoro
So let me get this straight - you want to make a bunch of people redundant, then hire a similar amount of people to perform a job that results in essentially the same effect as what the first group of people did, except way less effective because instead of being on the train, they're on the platform instead and can't hit the emergency brakes. That makes sense, right??? And of course, it doesn't answer for what happens to request stops.

A few other minor points:

@viaprojects said "the newer trains don't have a guard in the middle of the train". That isn't true, the D Sets operate in 6+4 car pairings, two sets coupled. The guard is in the middle, same as every other DD EMU in NSW except the Waratahs.

@simstrain asked "What point is there to eliminating the guard? All it achieves is making someone unemployed", to which I'd say the Govt doesn't really care. It's cost reduction, and if it comes at the trade-off of making people redundant in a crap economy and making train services more unsafe, they say so be it. If they actually cared, they wouldn't have tried to force the operating model in the first place, nor would the various ministers be trying to scrambling over each other trying to see who can shift the blame to the opposition the hardest.

@RTT_Rules said a couple things. First, "If [making people unemployed] is the sole reason for not removing guards then lets put guards on the Metro". As already established, redundancy isn't the sole reason for not removing guards, nor is it even the primary reason. The intercity run isn't at all comparable to Metro, as the intercitys don't have platform screen doors, don't have level boarding, and all have a gap. Not to mention, during peak hour the Metro has a guard walking along the train AND on the platforms at the busy stations (eg Epping, Chatswood).

Secondly, "All stations should be made 4 cars long". I would go one step further and say 6 (with conditions). Does any kind of change need to be made at Wondabyne, or Zig Zag, or Kembla Grange? No. For your average local station though, the types of D Sets that'll be stopping will be 4 OR 6 cars, so 6 is necessary, not 4. Helensburgh is currently a 6 car station, and it should be extended to 10 since it's already a "major" station and too short for the existing stock, let alone the D Sets. Unanderra has the same problem. The biggest issues with the SCO are it's numerous single-track sections, and the winding section south of Helensburgh. Both are very expensive to fix, but the former should take priority.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller



A few other minor points:

@viaprojects said "the newer trains don't have a guard in the middle of the train". That isn't true, the D Sets operate in 6+4 car pairings, two sets coupled. The guard is in the middle, same as every other DD EMU in NSW except the Waratahs.

alleve


10 car sets are limited .. 6 car set has the same issues as a 8 car set ..

really don't care cured stations all have issues even with a 4 cars set .. lived with 4 of them and only partly fix one by adding a section of platform

the gap and doors is a fun topic .. really the trains have more items than in the past but all get damaged or misused or the union has an issue ..really should we go back to the reds and skip all the bs of safety and air conditioned trains if the topic has it's way ..
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

@simstrain asked "What point is there to eliminating the guard? All it achieves is making someone unemployed", to which I'd say the Govt doesn't really care. It's cost reduction, and if it comes at the trade-off of making people redundant in a crap economy and making train services more unsafe, they say so be it. If they actually cared, they wouldn't have tried to force the operating model in the first place, nor would the various ministers be trying to scrambling over each other trying to see who can shift the blame to the opposition the hardest.

@RTT_Rules said a couple things. First, "If [making people unemployed] is the sole reason for not removing guards then lets put guards on the Metro". As already established, redundancy isn't the sole reason for not removing guards, nor is it even the primary reason. The intercity run isn't at all comparable to Metro, as the intercitys don't have platform screen doors, don't have level boarding, and all have a gap. Not to mention, during peak hour the Metro has a guard walking along the train AND on the platforms at the busy stations (eg Epping, Chatswood).

Secondly, "All stations should be made 4 cars long". I would go one step further and say 6 (with conditions). Does any kind of change need to be made at Wondabyne, or Zig Zag, or Kembla Grange? No. For your average local station though, the types of D Sets that'll be stopping will be 4 OR 6 cars, so 6 is necessary, not 4. Helensburgh is currently a 6 car station, and it should be extended to 10 since it's already a "major" station and too short for the existing stock, let alone the D Sets. Unanderra has the same problem. The biggest issues with the SCO are it's numerous single-track sections, and the winding section south of Helensburgh. Both are very expensive to fix, but the former should take priority.
alleve
Saying the guards would be made redundent is hogwassh, we all know they would be offered retraining into a new role and if they choose not to follow this path then yes a redundency would be applied instead.

We also all know the money used to pay the guards is from govt revenue and this just doesn't evaporate and rather gets redployed in other expenditure railway or otherwise or reducion in taxation which means the money is now in the pocket of the taxpayer where it is spent.

Efficency of spending of govt revenue is the difference between a developed nation and a developing nation and what govt gets for money spent. Remove 10 guards, replace with 10 nurses or 10 teachers or 10 police, which gives the greater investment back to the community?

If you think the current economy is bad, then you have blinkers on. Or is this the same the "hospitals are in crisis (for the last 40 years)"?

Agree when I refered to 4 plat for minimum, I wasn't refering to likes of Wondabyne. However I believe everything else on the CNN complies with my statement of min of 4 cars. Should they be 6? Well this is 2 short of 8, so should they be 8? I said 4 cars as I believe there should be a 4 car set (min size of NIF) servicing these stops with the Sydney - Newcastle stations. I doubt 6 cars is necessary and the times of day when the trhough services would stop, ie after say 10pm it probably doesn't matter.

The likes of Wondabyrne are "on request" stop only and yes the train can stop with drivers door and leading passenger carriage at the platform. Its not like this is a big issue.

As I said before, modernise the infrastructure, not try a patch job with rolling stock and throwing people at the problem making the permanent solution more complex and adding to the cost of the rail system while providing a reduced level of service.

And yes, I agree there should be a focus on retaining station staff at major stations over guards on trains.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It's not impossible, but it requires a lot more than just slamming a few CCTV cameras on a train and calling it a day. The problem with the intercity network is that a large amount of stations are unstaffed, have platforms that are curved and there are large gaps. If you were to have guardless trains you would need to have mostly straight platforms or platforms that have minimal gaps, as well as stations staff at every station that can monitor the train entering and departing. You also need to have an actual proper CCTV system that doesn't suffer from the blind spots, bad quality and no audio, such as found on the current NIF sets. It would be possible, however the cost would much outweigh than just leaving guards on trains. I had no idea what the government was thinking about this, but there now facing the truth on their dumb decisions.
Yellow_
Compares with DOO operations in Adelaide and Melbourne with mostly unstaff stations how?

The curved plats are the issue, so lets focus on modernisation of the network, many of the curved stations are close to straight sections of track and its not like we ar moving major Sydney Suburban stations. Its slabs of concrete on steel rails. The days of having to leap to/from the train and considered acceptable is over. We are spending $10B's building Metro with less than 50mm gap or difference in height from platform.

CCTV exists now at most stations, no change there. If the plat is straight, there are no blind spots, only one or two cameras needed.

Its not just about guards or no guards, its about acceptable modern standards.
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
If you think the current economy is bad, then you have blinkers on. Or is this the same the "hospitals are in crisis (for the last 40 years)"?

Agree when I refered to 4 plat for minimum, I wasn't refering to likes of Wondabyne. However I believe everything else on the CNN complies with my statement of min of 4 cars. Should they be 6? Well this is 2 short of 8, so should they be 8? I said 4 cars as I believe there should be a 4 car set (min size of NIF) servicing these stops with the Sydney - Newcastle stations. I doubt 6 cars is necessary and the times of day when the trhough services would stop, ie after say 10pm it probably doesn't matter.
RTT_Rules
If you think the current economy is good, you're completely blind. Unless you think high inflation, low wage growth, employers scrambling for staff, the first recession in 29 years, high fuel prices, being blacklisted by our most major trade partner and a high cost of living are features of a good economy, in which case I don't know how to help you. In the fields of debt/GDP, the value of the AUD, Govt spending, jobless rates, economic growth and income/person, the Australian economy's ranking in the OECD has tumbled ever since 2013. The economy is so crap both parties are aware of it. Then again, in a previous discussion you seemed to not know the difference between socialism and communism, so I'm not sure why I'm even paying attention to your comments about the economy given how misinformed they are.

"Should they be 6?" If 6 car trains will be using them, which they will, yes. A mix of 4 and 6 car trains will be running the less popular services, or else there'll be a whole lot of 6 car trains sitting around. It's important to keep in mind that a 4 car D Set has less capacity than 4 car V or H Sets. There's no point in saying that the platforms aren't long enough for the 4 car trains, they should be extended, when 6 car trains will be running the same services. It's especially the case on the SCO where 4 car trains run the Port Kembla - Thirroul/Waterfall route, which would leave more 6 car trains for all stops Central services. There's no point making platforms 8 cars since it's too long for any of the trains that would use those stops and not long enough for the trains that wouldn't outside of trackwork.

If nothing else, the SCO needs more tracks. It should be double track its entire distance and there should at least be a third track between Sutherland and Hurstville, if not a quad.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If you think the current economy is good, you're completely blind. Unless you think high inflation, low wage growth, employers scrambling for staff, the first recession in 29 years, high fuel prices, being blacklisted by our most major trade partner and a high cost of living are features of a good economy, in which case I don't know how to help you.

In the fields of debt/GDP, the value of the AUD, Govt spending, jobless rates, economic growth and income/person, the Australian economy's ranking in the OECD has tumbled ever since 2013. The economy is so crap both parties are aware of it. Then again, in a previous discussion you seemed to not know the difference between socialism and communism, so I'm not sure why I'm even paying attention to your comments about the economy given how misinformed they are.
Alleve
Oh dear, I thought you were smarter than this, seriously?

I mean, common, why post so much rubbish you know is either biased, mis represented and/or saying conflicting statements?

- High inflation, worth checking around the world and causes for same. If you want to mae claims of high inflation you need to compare with other OECD.

- Low wage growth, again mostly a global issue. However those with skills in demand would say otherwise.

- Employers scrambling for staff is the opposite of Low wage growth, make up your mind.

- First recession in 29 years, HELLO the whole bloody world had a recession, some countries are still the "CV-19 recession". Whether Australia would have had one anyway is another stort.

- Economic growth, up, HELLO what do you think is driving inflation? Currently 3.4% annualised at the upper end making RBA nervous.

- So what you are saying the former ALP govt unsustainably pushed Australia up on the OECD ranks based on the mining boom, which collapsed just as the left govt causing Canada into a short recession and Australia just narrowly escaped following suit.

- The economy just got the living $hit kicked out of it by nearly 24mth of CV lockdowns, international and interstate border closures, funding welfare, job keeper (we can argue how efficent or inefficent some of this spending was), now facing rising oil, gas and other commodity prices for consumers, you cannot even buy some stuff including new cars to replace cars lost due to floods and generally replacing aging models not replaced for two years. The question is how has Australia faired in comparision its major trading partners during this time?

- Umm, I used the two terms, communism and socialism together as either or, I didn't care which as the OP's comment applied to both. I said that before, not sure why I have ro repeat myself again or why you would even drag up an irrelevent thread from what 6mths ago unless you are bored?

I never said they were the same, but the other poster and it now seems you also seem to love creating jobs that shouldn't exist at the expense of the taxpayer where as that money should be used to create value adding jobs. Last I read the govt shouldn't be employing riders for the pony express, but some people here seem to want to go down that path with the justification, "it will create jobs".

While some here feel we should be going 3rd world and creating jobs where they shouldn't exist, its worth noting that Lebonon, Sri Lankia, Nepal and a few others who still employ such out dated strategies are on the verge of bankruptcy or "failed state" as a result such polices combined with the effects of CV and rapid changes in global markets on their respective economies.

- If you want to be informed, stop reading what ever crap you are reading.

Now I think we are done here so can we get back to trains?  Any further discussion should be directed to the Australia economy thread.
(yes I'm using alot of sarcasim to this point, I'll stop now but my statement that your comments are short sighted stand)

"Should they be 6?" If 6 car trains will be using them, which they will, yes. A mix of 4 and 6 car trains will be running the less popular services, or else there'll be a whole lot of 6 car trains sitting around. It's important to keep in mind that a 4 car D Set has less capacity than 4 car V or H Sets. There's no point in saying that the platforms aren't long enough for the 4 car trains, they should be extended, when 6 car trains will be running the same services.

It's especially the case on the SCO where 4 car trains run the Port Kembla - Thirroul/Waterfall route, which would leave more 6 car trains for all stops Central services. There's no point making platforms 8 cars since it's too long for any of the trains that would use those stops and not long enough for the trains that wouldn't outside of trackwork.
Somebody


I clarified my original comment saying CCN as I'm far more familiar with that line and used it again recently.

What 6 car trains would use the short platforms?

I did say through most services would run limited express, thus leaving the short platforms for local 4 car trains meeting the Limited expresses at two or three locations. Thus arrive, quick cross plat change and on again. Clock face timetable for Limited express and locals every 30min, rather than 60min which for most of the day I find is not community friendly. The Interurbans are trying to be all things to everyone and its a failure.

When I wouldn't employ locals is basically once the timetable drops to 1/h or less which is basically after 8pm and become all stoppers. For these half a dozen or so trains a night I don't propose to spend more money making 6 car platforms for the 1-2 people per train who might use. them (yes I used to commute home many years ago leaving 10:30p from Central to Gosford). The alternative is simple, the modern trains have station specific door control. As the number of cars per small station is basically constant then its fairly simple.

I sai 4 car train size more because thats a standard H set size, ie suburban with dunny (no dunnies on stations). This is probably too big for the demand and could be smaller but Sydney doesn't have such and to do so would be specialised fleet. Maybe this is an option? If the set size was smaller, then there is no need for 4 car train min platform size. However I think this is best all round as it fits the 4 car NIF. Again if the train is longer, then the doors do not open but the platform length is at least standardised. Kooliwong for example is 2 cars north bound, 4 cars south bound. Tascot is actually last three doors, but they say these days last car.  

The locals for CCN would be based in Gosford or other location further north and in Newcastle area for the local services there. They wouldn't be part of the CCN NIF fleet.
  Totoro Junior Train Controller

Australia has a VERY strong economy thanks to excellent management through some of the worst economic headwinds in a generation. Interest rates are still relatively low by international standards (lower than the UK, US, even New Zealand..) Unemployment is as low as it’s been in my entire lifetime. National debt is higher than I’d like, but JobKeeper was a one off and there’s a credible plan to get us back in the black. (People forget that the budget DID get back to surplus just before COVID happened). 2/3 of people own a home or are paying one off. We are doing pretty well as an economy, by almost any global comparison. We are one of the highest vaccinated countries out there to boot.

But yes, speaking of jobs and unemployment: The NIF guards should retrain as drivers, and I would hope that opportunity is offered. If we accept the idea that the world has changed due to COVID, we also need to accept that not every role is guaranteed to stay the same - or be required - for life. Everyone, including me, will have to face up to automation at some point. That is ok with me, it’s important to be able to adapt.

Those that expect their jobs to stay the same forever, may struggle in the years ahead.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Australia has a VERY strong economy thanks to excellent management through some of the worst economic headwinds in a generation. Interest rates are still relatively low by international standards (lower than the UK, US, even New Zealand..) Unemployment is as low as it’s been in my entire lifetime. National debt is higher than I’d like, but JobKeeper was a one off and there’s a credible plan to get us back in the black. (People forget that the budget DID get back to surplus just before COVID happened). 2/3 of people own a home or are paying one off. We are doing pretty well as an economy, by almost any global comparison. We are one of the highest vaccinated countries out there to boot.

But yes, speaking of jobs and unemployment: The NIF guards should retrain as drivers, and I would hope that opportunity is offered. If we accept the idea that the world has changed due to COVID, we also need to accept that not every role is guaranteed to stay the same - or be required - for life. Everyone, including me, will have to face up to automation at some point. That is ok with me, it’s important to be able to adapt.

Those that expect their jobs to stay the same forever, may struggle in the years ahead.
Totoro
Enough of these reality check facts on the economy Totoro, poor Alleve is grabbing his chest thorugh his red shirt.

Regarding post CV-19 economy, it has probably come out with alot more automation than we went in. As the world is reopening, during my travels I see huge changes. Emirates for example has self check counters in Dubai now in the business and 1st class check-in area which has seperate entrances than Economy. Likewise alot of country's have replaced passport control humans with automation. Again back to Dubai you now just walk through, no passport, nothing. Its just looking for your face. Having just come back from India, lots of changes towards automation, sometimes.

Those struggling with automation of any job fail to comprehend how much has changed in just the last 20 years, so I don't know how their brains works extrapolating that out to the start of the industrial revolution. The trick is staying ahead of the curve and not assuming you have the same job for life or a job for life with the same company. I found on this trip a large culture change in India towards accepting this.


Agree, the NIF probably should retain guards until the infrastructure is modernised.

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