Brisbane subway proposal

 
  Yappo Train Controller

Contractors making a push post Cross River to revive this previously mooted project. Brisbane Time article

Difficult to see it getting a run given all of the current & pre Olympic projects, plus other impending new lines such as Sailsbury and the Springfield Central to Ripley ext.

The concept for a Brisbane Subway, according to Connecting SEQ 2031, was “a new separate network, with separate operations to existing rail infrastructure” which would be designed to “support the expected growth and expansion of the inner city”.

“The Brisbane subway will provide a high-capacity, high-frequency distributor system connecting central city destinations and linking passengers from the bus and rail networks to destinations not within a comfortable walk of existing stations,” the document says. “The priority corridor for delivery by 2031 will be from Toowong to West End to Bowen Hills/Newstead. This corridor will be under the CBD and intersect with existing rail and busway stations.”
Brisbane Times

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Scope would be for this 15km long line (under ground section)
- Line branches of Suburban tracks after crossing river
- extra 2 plats at Indo
- then dive
- UG station at UQ
- UG station at West End/St Brisbane
- UG station at Albert St
- UG station at Kangaroo Point
- UG station at Teneriffe
- UG station at Balmoral
- UG station at Hamilton
- Surface on route past KS Drive to Doomben
- Duplicate Doomben line and upgrade stations. All are four platforms, but only two have two tracks and all would need some modenrisation. Probably move Hendra and Ascot off the curve to ensure all stations have straight platforms to enable future DOO operations.  
- Remove two LX on Doomben line.

Project has a bit in common with the Sydney NWRL Metro project, so all up nothing less than $6B, probably closer to $8B with inflation and other scope.

Operationally
- Springfield all to Indo then take the UG -> Return to city and off to Cleveland
In quieter times every 2nd train Corinda to Manly.

But yes its needed and will help Brisbane alot, but its way beyond the Qld govt ability to fund before 2035.


EDIT:
I'd actually merge Clayfield and Hendra stations at Alexandra Road/ Franz Roads as Clayfield is only a 700 hundred metres from EJ and platforms fo Clayfield and Hendra are barely 500m apart.

Ascot would be then moved off the curve onto the long straight parallel to Kitchener Road to enable a modern station with straight platforms

Also with a station at Hamilton then this along with the changes above to Clayfield and Hendra merger then better spaces the stations out for the area.

Doomben yard woud be streamline to just the two through platforms and this would enable the curve to Hamilton to be opened up and improve track speed.

Freighter access to Pinkemba line would be via the station platform roads with a cross over east of the station to prevent the need for a set of points on the inner track.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Seems like a waste for it to terminate at Hamilton.  Any options for it to continue further?  A second route for the airport line perhaps - Airport-New Farm-West End-Indooroopily-Ipswich-(eventually Toowoomba, and why not throw in a Wellcamp extension for good foam?)
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Seems like a waste for it to terminate at Hamilton.  Any options for it to continue further?  A second route for the airport line perhaps - Airport-New Farm-West End-Indooroopily-Ipswich-(eventually Toowoomba, and why not throw in a Wellcamp extension for good foam?)
james.au
See above, connect directly to end of Doomben line.

Airport not possible, nor why would you.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Seems like a waste for it to terminate at Hamilton.  Any options for it to continue further?  A second route for the airport line perhaps - Airport-New Farm-West End-Indooroopily-Ipswich-(eventually Toowoomba, and why not throw in a Wellcamp extension for good foam?)
See above, connect directly to end of Doomben line.

Airport not possible, nor why would you.
RTT_Rules
Why isnt it possible?  With a bit of land resumption at Thomas St and Junction Rd in Nundah, a triangle should easily fit (and if were tunnelling for a metro this is small fries in relative terms).

Why?  Why does the current airport rail go all the way down to the GC?  Greater connectivity will see more passengers than less.  People from Ipswich and Indooro also fly.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Seems like a waste for it to terminate at Hamilton.  Any options for it to continue further?  A second route for the airport line perhaps - Airport-New Farm-West End-Indooroopily-Ipswich-(eventually Toowoomba, and why not throw in a Wellcamp extension for good foam?)
See above, connect directly to end of Doomben line.

Airport not possible, nor why would you.
Why isnt it possible?  With a bit of land resumption at Thomas St and Junction Rd in Nundah, a triangle should easily fit (and if were tunnelling for a metro this is small fries in relative terms).

Why?  Why does the current airport rail go all the way down to the GC?  Greater connectivity will see more passengers than less.  People from Ipswich and Indooro also fly.
james.au
True, one day care and half a dozen houses to be removed, but why? Adds complexity to the network for very little benefit. Also why add this longer rout, why not just follow Zillmere street.

Currently Airport line is rated to 4 tr/h, this will be fully consumed by GC services.

EJ offers a a cross platform change.

GC trains service the airport as that was the biggest demand.

If coming from west, simply easier to change trains at Roma St or Central as faster. With new CRR, likely Roma St will be required as GC trains will likely be in the tunnel, although I'm not so sure on that bit.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
A same train service for people with bags will be far more popular and therefore chosen over cars.  And direct service for Tennerife/New Farm (id have 2 stations on that peninsula btw), KP, West End, not to mention the west, will be much more attractive than the current direct service.

And 4tph on the Airport Line is pretty poor in the scheme of things - doubling it shouldn't be too hard?
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Honestly, if any more tunnels get built under Brisbane it will sink into the abyss it so desperately deserves to.

While the state capital may well need transport amplification over the next decade - so do several other Queensland urban centres where zero attention, effort or planning is being paid.
  Expost Chief Commissioner

And how do we pay for this additional extravaganza? Yeah, lets just hike coal royalties again. At what point to resources companies simply throw their hands up in the air, and go, enoughs enough, and walk away from Queensland and Australia.


Or is that exactly the plan?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Honestly, if any more tunnels get built under Brisbane it will sink into the abyss it so desperately deserves to.

While the state capital may well need transport amplification over the next decade - so do several other Queensland urban centres where zero attention, effort or planning is being paid.
Sulla1
Oh i don't disagree but thats not the topic of this thread and this is entirely hypothetical.  Things elsewhere in the state is probably worth a whole thread on its own, im sure there are some interesting discussions to be had.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Honestly, if any more tunnels get built under Brisbane it will sink into the abyss it so desperately deserves to.

While the state capital may well need transport amplification over the next decade - so do several other Queensland urban centres where zero attention, effort or planning is being paid.
Sulla1
Brisbane has only a few tunnels, nothing compared to Sydney.

Rural communities say they want PT, but then don't use it. I lived in Gladstone 11 years, never once used the local bus, but go to Brisbane and I'll PT over driving. Very hard to adequetly service most regional towns as they are simply too spread out and driving is too quick. Hence they end up with a half arsed bus service mostly designed to take the elderly and disabled to the local hospital.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
And how do we pay for this additional extravaganza? Yeah, lets just hike coal royalties again. At what point to resources companies simply throw their hands up in the air, and go, enoughs enough, and walk away from Queensland and Australia.


Or is that exactly the plan?
Expost
Qld won't have the money to pay for this tunnel until the mid 2030's and probably the demand to justfy it. It took the Qld govt nearly 10 years after proposing the CRR to act and even then it was scaled down on what Anna B first promoted.

I remember back around 2011 when NEwmanm won office, a debate in RBOT forum which is moderated by a heavily left leaning moderator was saying Newman couldn't delay the CRR, it was desperately need, why is he modifying it. Blaa blaa blaa. Then also that studies had shown a 2nd CRR would be needed by now (2022'ish). 10 years later here we are, the first CRR under construction and will open under uterlised for at least 10 years and even then thats only using 6 car trains, the stations are designed for 9 car trains. So called growth projections in Australia are usually over stated.

Before the E-W tunnel, the govt will need to focus on future extensions to the CRR track capacity on both sides including Trouts Road.

The East - West tunnel could however be privatised to bring it in sooner with the govt providing the cost - revnue gap.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Honestly, if any more tunnels get built under Brisbane it will sink into the abyss it so desperately deserves to.

While the state capital may well need transport amplification over the next decade - so do several other Queensland urban centres where zero attention, effort or planning is being paid.
Brisbane has only a few tunnels, nothing compared to Sydney.

Rural communities say they want PT, but then don't use it. I lived in Gladstone 11 years, never once used the local bus, but go to Brisbane and I'll PT over driving. Very hard to adequetly service most regional towns as they are simply too spread out and driving is too quick. Hence they end up with a half arsed bus service mostly designed to take the elderly and disabled to the local hospital.
RTT_Rules

The Sunshine Coast has a population of 340,000 - and expected to hit 500,000 in 2040 - it still has no direct heavy or light rail in place, just studies and reports that have been ongoing for the last 20-years.

The Bruce Highway corridor north of Gympie is the primary commuter and freight corridor for 1.3-million people. There is no planning in place for amplification, despite 200 road deaths every year on this one road. Townsville to Cairns is now the most heavily used two-lane section of the Bruce Highway, with vehicle counts between 12,000 to 16,000 per day (Gympie to Maryborough is sitting at 9,000-vehicles per day) - the roadway is in better condition than Townsville to Mackay, but I injured my back hitting a pothole north of Tully in October 2021, the pothole is still there. The same corridor is supporting up to six return commuter flights between the two cities using 76-seat Dash 8s and SAABs.

Highway congestion south of Townsville has added an hour to travel time between Townsville and Mackay since 2015. Travelling by train is easily an hour faster than driving, but there's only five trains services per week. Qantas Link provides three daily return commuter flights on this corridor.

The company I work for has shifted to flying us between Townsville and Rockhampton this year, instead of driving, to improve workplace safety.

There are a lot of things money could be spent on in Queensland instead of another tunnel for Brisbane. Increased regional rail services seems a simple and relatively cheap alternative to help reduce road congestion and deaths. However, as usual, Brisbane will probably get another tunnel for inner city commuters who already have multiple transport options, instead of trying to save the lives of North Queensland highway commuters who will continue to die in numbers not seen anywhere else in Australia.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Honestly, if any more tunnels get built under Brisbane it will sink into the abyss it so desperately deserves to.

While the state capital may well need transport amplification over the next decade - so do several other Queensland urban centres where zero attention, effort or planning is being paid.
Brisbane has only a few tunnels, nothing compared to Sydney.

Rural communities say they want PT, but then don't use it. I lived in Gladstone 11 years, never once used the local bus, but go to Brisbane and I'll PT over driving. Very hard to adequetly service most regional towns as they are simply too spread out and driving is too quick. Hence they end up with a half arsed bus service mostly designed to take the elderly and disabled to the local hospital.

The Sunshine Coast has a population of 340,000 - and expected to hit 500,000 in 2040 - it still has no direct heavy or light rail in place, just studies and reports that have been ongoing for the last 20-years.

The Bruce Highway corridor north of Gympie is the primary commuter and freight corridor for 1.3-million people. There is no planning in place for amplification, despite 200 road deaths every year on this one road. Townsville to Cairns is now the most heavily used two-lane section of the Bruce Highway, with vehicle counts between 12,000 to 16,000 per day (Gympie to Maryborough is sitting at 9,000-vehicles per day) - the roadway is in better condition than Townsville to Mackay, but I injured my back hitting a pothole north of Tully in October 2021, the pothole is still there. The same corridor is supporting up to six return commuter flights between the two cities using 76-seat Dash 8s and SAABs.

Highway congestion south of Townsville has added an hour to travel time between Townsville and Mackay since 2015. Travelling by train is easily an hour faster than driving, but there's only five trains services per week. Qantas Link provides three daily return commuter flights on this corridor.

The company I work for has shifted to flying us between Townsville and Rockhampton this year, instead of driving, to improve workplace safety.

There are a lot of things money could be spent on in Queensland instead of another tunnel for Brisbane. Increased regional rail services seems a simple and relatively cheap alternative to help reduce road congestion and deaths. However, as usual, Brisbane will probably get another tunnel for inner city commuters who already have multiple transport options, instead of trying to save the lives of North Queensland highway commuters who will continue to die in numbers not seen anywhere else in Australia.
Sulla1
Sulla, after being up there a few times now, the Cairns-Townsville-Mackay area ive thought would make sense for some sort of commuter rail for those same reasons.  How would you see one working up there?  Looking at the Spirit, the line speed Mackay-Townsville looks fine but Townsville-Cairns is a little long.  What sort of rolling stock?  What sort of frequency?
  Expost Chief Commissioner

And how do we pay for this additional extravaganza? Yeah, lets just hike coal royalties again. At what point to resources companies simply throw their hands up in the air, and go, enoughs enough, and walk away from Queensland and Australia.


Or is that exactly the plan?
Qld won't have the money to pay for this tunnel until the mid 2030's and probably the demand to justfy it. It took the Qld govt nearly 10 years after proposing the CRR to act and even then it was scaled down on what Anna B first promoted.

I remember back around 2011 when NEwmanm won office, a debate in RBOT forum which is moderated by a heavily left leaning moderator was saying Newman couldn't delay the CRR, it was desperately need, why is he modifying it. Blaa blaa blaa. Then also that studies had shown a 2nd CRR would be needed by now (2022'ish). 10 years later here we are, the first CRR under construction and will open under uterlised for at least 10 years and even then thats only using 6 car trains, the stations are designed for 9 car trains. So called growth projections in Australia are usually over stated.

Before the E-W tunnel, the govt will need to focus on future extensions to the CRR track capacity on both sides including Trouts Road.

The East - West tunnel could however be privatised to bring it in sooner with the govt providing the cost - revnue gap.
RTT_Rules
I can remember when the current, northern freeway/Bruce Hwy was built from the Bald Hills area (Carsaldine didnt exist) through to, IIRC, the Caloundra exit, bypassing the original road that went through places like Strathpine, Petrie, Burpengary, Morayfield, Caboolture, etc. When it was built, a number of overpasses were built, with the capacity for double lane highway to pass under them, but only one side was utilised. I often wondered why these underutilised overpasses were built. I even remember one that was built, and no roads were connected to it. Just an overpass stuck out there on its own.
Of course, over the years, these have been fully utilised with the highway as we now see it, even to the extent that some of them are now too narrow (think Caloundra interchange) and they are being replaced with even longer overpasses, to allow for even more expansion of the number of lanes passing under them. There was also the same at Maryborough bypass, although I think its now being used.
I think they call it Future Proofing. Perhaps that is why they have built platforms for 9 car sets.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
The Sunshine Coast has a population of 340,000 - and expected to hit 500,000 in 2040 - it still has no direct heavy or light rail in place, just studies and reports that have been ongoing for the last 20-years.

The Bruce Highway corridor north of Gympie is the primary commuter and freight corridor for 1.3-million people. There is no planning in place for amplification, despite 200 road deaths every year on this one road. Townsville to Cairns is now the most heavily used two-lane section of the Bruce Highway, with vehicle counts between 12,000 to 16,000 per day (Gympie to Maryborough is sitting at 9,000-vehicles per day) - the roadway is in better condition than Townsville to Mackay, but I injured my back hitting a pothole north of Tully in October 2021, the pothole is still there. The same corridor is supporting up to six return commuter flights between the two cities using 76-seat Dash 8s and SAABs.

Highway congestion south of Townsville has added an hour to travel time between Townsville and Mackay since 2015. Travelling by train is easily an hour faster than driving, but there's only five trains services per week. Qantas Link provides three daily return commuter flights on this corridor.

The company I work for has shifted to flying us between Townsville and Rockhampton this year, instead of driving, to improve workplace safety.

There are a lot of things money could be spent on in Queensland instead of another tunnel for Brisbane. Increased regional rail services seems a simple and relatively cheap alternative to help reduce road congestion and deaths. However, as usual, Brisbane will probably get another tunnel for inner city commuters who already have multiple transport options, instead of trying to save the lives of North Queensland highway commuters who will continue to die in numbers not seen anywhere else in Australia.
Sulla1
Id throw in some form of cross border train into Northern NSW with this too perhaps (and yes it can be NG).  The traffic on the M1 south into places like Byron is pretty heavy at times.  Though how much of that would convert to rail would be my first question.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

The Sunshine Coast has a population of 340,000 - and expected to hit 500,000 in 2040 - it still has no direct heavy or light rail in place, just studies and reports that have been ongoing for the last 20-years.

The Bruce Highway corridor north of Gympie is the primary commuter and freight corridor for 1.3-million people. There is no planning in place for amplification, despite 200 road deaths every year on this one road. Townsville to Cairns is now the most heavily used two-lane section of the Bruce Highway, with vehicle counts between 12,000 to 16,000 per day (Gympie to Maryborough is sitting at 9,000-vehicles per day) - the roadway is in better condition than Townsville to Mackay, but I injured my back hitting a pothole north of Tully in October 2021, the pothole is still there. The same corridor is supporting up to six return commuter flights between the two cities using 76-seat Dash 8s and SAABs.

Highway congestion south of Townsville has added an hour to travel time between Townsville and Mackay since 2015. Travelling by train is easily an hour faster than driving, but there's only five trains services per week. Qantas Link provides three daily return commuter flights on this corridor.

The company I work for has shifted to flying us between Townsville and Rockhampton this year, instead of driving, to improve workplace safety.

There are a lot of things money could be spent on in Queensland instead of another tunnel for Brisbane. Increased regional rail services seems a simple and relatively cheap alternative to help reduce road congestion and deaths. However, as usual, Brisbane will probably get another tunnel for inner city commuters who already have multiple transport options, instead of trying to save the lives of North Queensland highway commuters who will continue to die in numbers not seen anywhere else in Australia.
Id throw in some form of cross border train into Northern NSW with this too perhaps (and yes it can be NG).  The traffic on the M1 south into places like Byron is pretty heavy at times.  Though how much of that would convert to rail would be my first question.
james.au

While extending the narrow gauge QR network south of the border is almost certainly the best solution, I suspect integrating what's left of the Murwillumbah branch and corridor into an extension of the GLink light rail system will be the most cost acceptable way of getting rail services to Byron Bay - it's hard to see the NSW and QLD governments cooperating on a heavy rail solution.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Honestly, if any more tunnels get built under Brisbane it will sink into the abyss it so desperately deserves to.

While the state capital may well need transport amplification over the next decade - so do several other Queensland urban centres where zero attention, effort or planning is being paid.
Brisbane has only a few tunnels, nothing compared to Sydney.

Rural communities say they want PT, but then don't use it. I lived in Gladstone 11 years, never once used the local bus, but go to Brisbane and I'll PT over driving. Very hard to adequetly service most regional towns as they are simply too spread out and driving is too quick. Hence they end up with a half arsed bus service mostly designed to take the elderly and disabled to the local hospital.

The Sunshine Coast has a population of 340,000 - and expected to hit 500,000 in 2040 - it still has no direct heavy or light rail in place, just studies and reports that have been ongoing for the last 20-years.

The Bruce Highway corridor north of Gympie is the primary commuter and freight corridor for 1.3-million people. There is no planning in place for amplification, despite 200 road deaths every year on this one road. Townsville to Cairns is now the most heavily used two-lane section of the Bruce Highway, with vehicle counts between 12,000 to 16,000 per day (Gympie to Maryborough is sitting at 9,000-vehicles per day) - the roadway is in better condition than Townsville to Mackay, but I injured my back hitting a pothole north of Tully in October 2021, the pothole is still there. The same corridor is supporting up to six return commuter flights between the two cities using 76-seat Dash 8s and SAABs.

Highway congestion south of Townsville has added an hour to travel time between Townsville and Mackay since 2015. Travelling by train is easily an hour faster than driving, but there's only five trains services per week. Qantas Link provides three daily return commuter flights on this corridor.

The company I work for has shifted to flying us between Townsville and Rockhampton this year, instead of driving, to improve workplace safety.

There are a lot of things money could be spent on in Queensland instead of another tunnel for Brisbane. Increased regional rail services seems a simple and relatively cheap alternative to help reduce road congestion and deaths. However, as usual, Brisbane will probably get another tunnel for inner city commuters who already have multiple transport options, instead of trying to save the lives of North Queensland highway commuters who will continue to die in numbers not seen anywhere else in Australia.
Sulla, after being up there a few times now, the Cairns-Townsville-Mackay area ive thought would make sense for some sort of commuter rail for those same reasons.  How would you see one working up there?  Looking at the Spirit, the line speed Mackay-Townsville looks fine but Townsville-Cairns is a little long.  What sort of rolling stock?  What sort of frequency?
james.au

I'm quietly confident for around $1.5-billion enough deviations between Innisfail and Gordonvale could be built, and enough new 50kg rail, concrete sleepers and additional roadbed strengthening installed to acheive 4-hour transit times between Townsville and Cairns. That would be an average speed of 85km/h. Most of the line between Townsville and Innisfail is quite well aligned, unprotected level crossings are the critical issue. Throwing in rollingstock is extra, but diesel "Velocity" style units, hydrogen fuel cell or electric would all be options. Electrification between Townsville and Cairns would cost at least $600-million, but comes with all that friendly green energy (solar and wind) generated in North Queensland.

Assuming Qantas has found the magic service number, at least five daily return services should be the starting point, with a focus on two morning, two afternoon and an evening departure.

Freight trains between Mackay and Townville can already manage average speeds of 77km on what is quite a fast section - passenger services averaging 85km/h could complete the terminal to terminal trip in 4hr 25min. Level crossing removal or increased protection would be the biggest additional cost. If you want to add in electrification that would be a goodly additional $700-million, but having a North Queensland interurban fleet that could be integrated with the fleet in the South East would tick a few operating boxes.

Prior to Covid, Proserpine to Cairns backpacker passenger business was huge, something the commuter air services between Mackay and Townsville already miss. I suspect a similar arrangement with five daily return services, inlcuding a number travelling all the way from Mackay to Cairns would generate considerable passenger movement that is now entirely road based.

These services would trade significantly on the heavy Bruce Highway based commuter corridors between Proserpine and Mackay, Ayr to Townsville, Ingham to Townsville and Innisfail to Cairns.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Honestly, if any more tunnels get built under Brisbane it will sink into the abyss it so desperately deserves to.

While the state capital may well need transport amplification over the next decade - so do several other Queensland urban centres where zero attention, effort or planning is being paid.
Brisbane has only a few tunnels, nothing compared to Sydney.

Rural communities say they want PT, but then don't use it. I lived in Gladstone 11 years, never once used the local bus, but go to Brisbane and I'll PT over driving. Very hard to adequetly service most regional towns as they are simply too spread out and driving is too quick. Hence they end up with a half arsed bus service mostly designed to take the elderly and disabled to the local hospital.

The Sunshine Coast has a population of 340,000 - and expected to hit 500,000 in 2040 - it still has no direct heavy or light rail in place, just studies and reports that have been ongoing for the last 20-years.

The Bruce Highway corridor north of Gympie is the primary commuter and freight corridor for 1.3-million people. There is no planning in place for amplification, despite 200 road deaths every year on this one road. Townsville to Cairns is now the most heavily used two-lane section of the Bruce Highway, with vehicle counts between 12,000 to 16,000 per day (Gympie to Maryborough is sitting at 9,000-vehicles per day) - the roadway is in better condition than Townsville to Mackay, but I injured my back hitting a pothole north of Tully in October 2021, the pothole is still there. The same corridor is supporting up to six return commuter flights between the two cities using 76-seat Dash 8s and SAABs.

Highway congestion south of Townsville has added an hour to travel time between Townsville and Mackay since 2015. Travelling by train is easily an hour faster than driving, but there's only five trains services per week. Qantas Link provides three daily return commuter flights on this corridor.

The company I work for has shifted to flying us between Townsville and Rockhampton this year, instead of driving, to improve workplace safety.

There are a lot of things money could be spent on in Queensland instead of another tunnel for Brisbane. Increased regional rail services seems a simple and relatively cheap alternative to help reduce road congestion and deaths. However, as usual, Brisbane will probably get another tunnel for inner city commuters who already have multiple transport options, instead of trying to save the lives of North Queensland highway commuters who will continue to die in numbers not seen anywhere else in Australia.
Sulla1
0.3m people spread out over an area the size of Hobart, which also has no HR and no serious plan for one for similar reasons.

If the population of 0.5m was the trigger for a rail project then realistically we are talking breraking ground in 2035, so no need for anything now.

Regardless look at the GC, HV is basically inland of the coastal region and LR has only started in last decade and only then with significant local council support, so case of put your money on the table and then we will talk.

Don't get me wrong, I personally believe there should be HR from Marcoochy to Coolingatta by now. However Qld is broke and has been for 12 years, hence delays.

Having lived in Gladstone and still travel up that way every few years, there is no requirement for four lanes of the Bruce apart from local sections between Gympie and Cairns. Lets be realistic, they only not long ago (15 years?) finished the Hume Highway and I think the Pacific is still a work in progress or recently completed.

10,000 vehicles per day is nothing. The major roads in the capital cities carry 1700 vehicles per hour per lane.

Brisbane has signifcant road congestion that makes the issues on the Bruce highway look like a Macca's drive through line. While I agree some parts of the Bruce will no doubt need expanding, its not the whole thing and realistically you could not expect the whole thing to be complete before 2040. Most Brisbane road tunnels are also Tolled, something that might not go down as well if the same funding model was used further north.

The road crash stats for Qld for 2016 had it among one of the lowest of the states. The 2020 data is different but I wouldn't believe 2020 considering lockdowns in other states. Overall road deaths per km driven is on the decline. However we still have a culture that speed camera's are seen as revenue raisers and "its the Cops fault I was caught speeding at the bottom of the hill". ie people still outsourcing the issue that they refuse or cannot to control the vehicle to within the extent of the law. We can go like middle east, where billions are spent on road infrastruture because people cannot drive, or we can work boths sides of the tracks and only spend money on roads where congestion is a major issue while improving driving discipline.

Regarding rail, I agree there should be a daily CTT to Cairns and potentially a 2nd service between Mackay and Cairns.

Regarding rail service in NSW, likewise I also agree there should be a daily return from Grafton to Brisbane, in normal hours.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I can remember when the current, northern freeway/Bruce Hwy was built from the Bald Hills area (Carsaldine didnt exist) through to, IIRC, the Caloundra exit, bypassing the original road that went through places like Strathpine, Petrie, Burpengary, Morayfield, Caboolture, etc. When it was built, a number of overpasses were built, with the capacity for double lane highway to pass under them, but only one side was utilised. I often wondered why these underutilised overpasses were built. I even remember one that was built, and no roads were connected to it. Just an overpass stuck out there on its own.
Of course, over the years, these have been fully utilised with the highway as we now see it, even to the extent that some of them are now too narrow (think Caloundra interchange) and they are being replaced with even longer overpasses, to allow for even more expansion of the number of lanes passing under them. There was also the same at Maryborough bypass, although I think its now being used.

I think they call it Future Proofing. Perhaps that is why they have built platforms for 9 car sets.
Expost
YEs, when building it, future proof, to a degree. However I suspect it took alot longer than expected to expand.

CRR is 9 cars for same reason and I believe all Airport and GC line stations were built with capability to extend to 9 cars. The city platforms especially Central cannot easily be extended.

Likewise the Sunny Coast line should be built with 9 car option as frequency is more complex to increase and 9 cars reduces the cost per train to taxpayer as 1 driver and 1 guard.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Id throw in some form of cross border train into Northern NSW with this too perhaps (and yes it can be NG).  The traffic on the M1 south into places like Byron is pretty heavy at times.  Though how much of that would convert to rail would be my first question.

While extending the narrow gauge QR network south of the border is almost certainly the best solution, I suspect integrating what's left of the Murwillumbah branch and corridor into an extension of the GLink light rail system will be the most cost acceptable way of getting rail services to Byron Bay - it's hard to see the NSW and QLD governments cooperating on a heavy rail solution.
Sulla1
There should be a daily Grafton - Brisbane  - Grafton. Arriving just on 9:30am, leaving at ~4 pm.

Need to get the GC line to Coolingatta first but extension into NSW should be the next step.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Sulla, after being up there a few times now, the Cairns-Townsville-Mackay area ive thought would make sense for some sort of commuter rail for those same reasons.  How would you see one working up there?  Looking at the Spirit, the line speed Mackay-Townsville looks fine but Townsville-Cairns is a little long.  What sort of rolling stock?  What sort of frequency?

I'm quietly confident for around $1.5-billion enough deviations between Innisfail and Gordonvale could be built, and enough new 50kg rail, concrete sleepers and additional roadbed strengthening installed to acheive 4-hour transit times between Townsville and Cairns. That would be an average speed of 85km/h. Most of the line between Townsville and Innisfail is quite well aligned, unprotected level crossings are the critical issue. Throwing in rollingstock is extra, but diesel "Velocity" style units, hydrogen fuel cell or electric would all be options. Electrification between Townsville and Cairns would cost at least $600-million, but comes with all that friendly green energy (solar and wind) generated in North Queensland.

Assuming Qantas has found the magic service number, at least five daily return services should be the starting point, with a focus on two morning, two afternoon and an evening departure.

Freight trains between Mackay and Townville can already manage average speeds of 77km on what is quite a fast section - passenger services averaging 85km/h could complete the terminal to terminal trip in 4hr 25min. Level crossing removal or increased protection would be the biggest additional cost. If you want to add in electrification that would be a goodly additional $700-million, but having a North Queensland interurban fleet that could be integrated with the fleet in the South East would tick a few operating boxes.

Prior to Covid, Proserpine to Cairns backpacker passenger business was huge, something the commuter air services between Mackay and Townsville already miss. I suspect a similar arrangement with five daily return services, inlcuding a number travelling all the way from Mackay to Cairns would generate considerable passenger movement that is now entirely road based.

These services would trade significantly on the heavy Bruce Highway based commuter corridors between Proserpine and Mackay, Ayr to Townsville, Ingham to Townsville and Innisfail to Cairns.
Sulla1
The frustrating thing for me up that way is the CTT being slowed to 100km/h for a 10m road crossing into paddocks that many clearly have not seen a car in years. There must be a better way to resolving this issue, especially when visibilty is not an issue and the trains are operating in daylight.

I wouldn't be so confident on that $1.5B although I'm not saying it shouldn't happen and the CTT travel time should be reduced end to end to less than 21 hours, thus allowing a short turn around in Cairns and return to Brisbane within 48h of departure. A day for servicing and then return. Only 3 sets needed for a daily service. Nth of Innes and Sunny Coast are the main pain points.

Local daily return service from Mackay to Cairns would complement the daily CTT, agree using same rolling stock. Loco's can be changed out with CTT at Cairns as required for servicing in Brisbane. Likewise the Inlander should be converted to a half CTT set.

Sparking the line for pax service only is not financially attractive in anyway shape or form. It would be cheaper and more CO2 effective to fund RE elsewhere and simply run hybrid diesel with option to go to H2 in future.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I'm quietly confident for around $1.5-billion enough deviations between Innisfail and Gordonvale could be built, and enough new 50kg rail, concrete sleepers and additional roadbed strengthening installed to acheive 4-hour transit times between Townsville and Cairns. That would be an average speed of 85km/h. Most of the line between Townsville and Innisfail is quite well aligned, unprotected level crossings are the critical issue. Throwing in rollingstock is extra, but diesel "Velocity" style units, hydrogen fuel cell or electric would all be options. Electrification between Townsville and Cairns would cost at least $600-million, but comes with all that friendly green energy (solar and wind) generated in North Queensland.

Assuming Qantas has found the magic service number, at least five daily return services should be the starting point, with a focus on two morning, two afternoon and an evening departure.

Freight trains between Mackay and Townville can already manage average speeds of 77km on what is quite a fast section - passenger services averaging 85km/h could complete the terminal to terminal trip in 4hr 25min. Level crossing removal or increased protection would be the biggest additional cost. If you want to add in electrification that would be a goodly additional $700-million, but having a North Queensland interurban fleet that could be integrated with the fleet in the South East would tick a few operating boxes.

Prior to Covid, Proserpine to Cairns backpacker passenger business was huge, something the commuter air services between Mackay and Townsville already miss. I suspect a similar arrangement with five daily return services, inlcuding a number travelling all the way from Mackay to Cairns would generate considerable passenger movement that is now entirely road based.

These services would trade significantly on the heavy Bruce Highway based commuter corridors between Proserpine and Mackay, Ayr to Townsville, Ingham to Townsville and Innisfail to Cairns.
Sulla1
I like the look of this.

Would passengers on the train be switching more from road or from air do you think?  

And could a loco hauled solution be better for a while whilst the level crossings are funded?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I like the look of this.

Would passengers on the train be switching more from road or from air do you think?  

And could a loco hauled solution be better for a while whilst the level crossings are funded?
james.au
Unlikely unless the timing was perfect.

If there is a plane every few hours, then your wait time is minimal and travel time short.

If there was two trains a day and the trip time is significantly longer than flying........we know where this is headed.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

I'm quietly confident for around $1.5-billion enough deviations between Innisfail and Gordonvale could be built, and enough new 50kg rail, concrete sleepers and additional roadbed strengthening installed to acheive 4-hour transit times between Townsville and Cairns. That would be an average speed of 85km/h. Most of the line between Townsville and Innisfail is quite well aligned, unprotected level crossings are the critical issue. Throwing in rollingstock is extra, but diesel "Velocity" style units, hydrogen fuel cell or electric would all be options. Electrification between Townsville and Cairns would cost at least $600-million, but comes with all that friendly green energy (solar and wind) generated in North Queensland.

Assuming Qantas has found the magic service number, at least five daily return services should be the starting point, with a focus on two morning, two afternoon and an evening departure.

Freight trains between Mackay and Townville can already manage average speeds of 77km on what is quite a fast section - passenger services averaging 85km/h could complete the terminal to terminal trip in 4hr 25min. Level crossing removal or increased protection would be the biggest additional cost. If you want to add in electrification that would be a goodly additional $700-million, but having a North Queensland interurban fleet that could be integrated with the fleet in the South East would tick a few operating boxes.

Prior to Covid, Proserpine to Cairns backpacker passenger business was huge, something the commuter air services between Mackay and Townsville already miss. I suspect a similar arrangement with five daily return services, inlcuding a number travelling all the way from Mackay to Cairns would generate considerable passenger movement that is now entirely road based.

These services would trade significantly on the heavy Bruce Highway based commuter corridors between Proserpine and Mackay, Ayr to Townsville, Ingham to Townsville and Innisfail to Cairns.
I like the look of this.

Would passengers on the train be switching more from road or from air do you think?  

And could a loco hauled solution be better for a while whilst the level crossings are funded?
james.au

Road based users are the most obvious market, those commuting by Qantas Link are choosing to do so due to time constraints, or they can afford the ticket, or most often their employer is paying for it. The demand is very high on these flights, I rarely see an empty seat between Townsville and Mackay.

Trains have to beat road transit times - I can drive from the southern side of Cairns to the northern suburbs of Townsville in four hours flat (if I don't stop and don't get stuck at roadworks or behind a caravan for 50km). The northern side of Mackay (opposite the railway station) to the northern side of Townsville takes five and a half hours (if I'm lucky).

But even for flying, if you take into account an hour checking in and waiting at the terminal, a 45 minute flight to either Cairns or Mackay and then the time it takes to reach either CBD, a commuter flight can take up more than two hours travel time. A medium speed, but frequent rail service, might attract some air travellers looking for departure time alternatives.

As it stands, any sort of additional rail service would be better than what is currently offered. Between Mackay and Townsville - where no expenditure is needed to meet an existing average speed of 77km/h (a 4hr 50min trip) - a QR Clyde with a three car Inlander-style set, could begin running tomorrow...or today. A single set could run a morning departure out of Townsville, and an afternoon departure out of Mackay. Two sets could offer morning and afternoon departures out of both Mackay and Townsville. The currently stored Spirit of Capricorn sets could be candidates as suitable locomotive-hauled rollingstock, either hauled with a power car, or with gensets installed in their baggage compartments.

It would be possible to run an Inlander-style set to Cairns too, although transit times would be an issue without alignment improvements. Still, a 6.00am morning departure from Townsville could be turned around in Cairns mid-afternoon for a late evening arrival back in Townsville.

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