Who is winning The RACE (part 2)?

 
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
At the risk of adding another conspiracy theory to his list   Rolling Eyes
That's two and half pages not devoted to Locomotives in the Race.
If "Mr"Warton and David Peters don't mind?
Does that mean that these two are immune to off topic posting rules, and if so why ? By the way people who shout conspiracy theories usually have something to hide, and  know that for legal and other reasons it can be very difficult to claim such proof. However one has only got to do a bit of research on Wharton and David Peters here on Railpage Australia™, and read their own words Wink

Cheers
Rod

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  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

Actually Rod, wolfpac was also one of the off topic posters but has been steadfastly trying to plead "on topic" since being asked to substantiate his remark of vendettas against certain manufacturers. Conspiracy theories are usually claimed when people make wild and unsubstantiated claims and cannot provide evidence to back their assertions. Something I must say you have form for.

So again, dont be shy. If you or anyone else have substantial proof of a vendetta or campaign against any suppliers then provide proof of it. But you wont do that, because, well it just is not your style.

Craig W
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

To put some topicality back to the thread, as mentioned, a number of the suppliers dont play "the game" anymore and make no announcement until their products are at a very advanced stage of manufacture. This is about to become an issue so the next few months should be interesting!

Surely the biggest issue though is the fallout from the decision by Sandakan to cull its customer list. Until those who are involved with this company state what is happening to them a great deal of the race could remain nothing more than a long term wish list.

Craig W
  james13 Chief Commissioner

Location: At the Skunk Works
Surely the biggest issue though is the fallout from the decision by Sandakan to cull its customer list. Until those who are involved with this company state what is happening to them a great deal of the race could remain nothing more than a long term wish list.

Craig W
"CraigW"

It may come to play that Austrains becomes an agent of sorts for the current suppliers and they deal with Sanda Kan on behalf of or instead of. I am only throwing an idea in the air here. We won't know what happens if anything until its all gone through the wash.
  Albert Chief Commissioner


It may come to play that Austrains becomes an agent of sorts for the current suppliers and they deal with Sanda Kan on behalf of or instead of. I am only throwing an idea in the air here. We won't know what happens if anything until its all gone through the wash.
"james13"


Was thinking much the same. Australia has such a small market size Sanda Kan may consider all OZ based dealers as one big customer.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
To put some topicality back to the thread, as mentioned, a number of the suppliers dont play "the game" anymore and make no announcement until their products are at a very advanced stage of manufacture. This is about to become an issue so the next few months should be interesting!

Surely the biggest issue though is the fallout from the decision by Sandakan to cull its customer list. Until those who are involved with this company state what is happening to them a great deal of the race could remain nothing more than a long term wish list.

Craig W
"CraigW"


Well at least you know how to take good advice  Rolling Eyes

One company that does not seem to be here on the Race lists is Powerline. Perhaps they have been left out in the cold, after their venture in India. I have asked if their was any news there, but unusually it has gone very quiet.

I do think that Craig has got it right though, with so many larger companies dumped, I was even surprised Austrains were retained.
To further warm me to this theory (Ha!) is the tidy little business agreement between Austrains and Trainorama at Tom's Wink

Sanda Kan are not the only manufacturers, and it has been said that many of Sanda Kan's previous employees are  or already have set up business' of their own.
Austrains have told us they are also trying other companies but only for rolling stock.
Eureka have said nothing...still
Powerline have contacts through  Rob Carpenter , I think as they do the VHGY in both scales with some sort of arrangement.
and Auscision are sitting pretty and if their was a prize in this RACE  Very Happy
They already seem to have it in the bag Smile
Cheers
Rod
  hanovale Deputy Commissioner



I do think that Craig has got it right though, with so many larger companies dumped, I was even surprised Austrains were retained.
"comtrain"


So Rod, what do  you know that hasn't made it onto the internet? Which "larger companies" have been dumped? The list I've seen is Weaver, S Helper Services, American Models, Bowser, Micro-Trains, Marklin/Trix, Des Plaines Hobbies and Deluxe Innovations. For the most part these are not big companies. Bowser apparently had almost nothing still with Sanda Kan, having moved all new work to another manufacturer. Marklin/Trix has admiitted to having some jobs with Sanda Kan but less than 7% of turnover. They also claim that they have been looking around for other manufacturers. Micro-Trains also apparently have litte if anything left with Sanda Kan.

There are still a lot of the purported 60 dumped companiees that haven't come forward but if there was a big company with a large amount of Sanda Kan production in there I think we'd know by now. Remember also that the news is mostly coming from a single American publication that is not likely to report problems for companies that don't produce American prototype.

If Australia can have a "model railway golden age" then so can other countries outside of the USA. I suspect that most of the 60 will prove to be companies similar to Austrains or Trainorama, catering for a limited market in their own country.
  a6et Minister for Railways



I do think that Craig has got it right though, with so many larger companies dumped, I was even surprised Austrains were retained.
"comtrain"


So Rod, what do  you know that hasn't made it onto the internet? Which "larger companies" have been dumped? The list I've seen is Weaver, S Helper Services, American Models, Bowser, Micro-Trains, Marklin/Trix, Des Plaines Hobbies and Deluxe Innovations. For the most part these are not big companies. Bowser apparently had almost nothing still with Sanda Kan, having moved all new work to another manufacturer. Marklin/Trix has admiitted to having some jobs with Sanda Kan but less than 7% of turnover. They also claim that they have been looking around for other manufacturers. Micro-Trains also apparently have litte if anything left with Sanda Kan.

There are still a lot of the purported 60 dumped companiees that haven't come forward but if there was a big company with a large amount of Sanda Kan production in there I think we'd know by now. Remember also that the news is mostly coming from a single American publication that is not likely to report problems for companies that don't produce American prototype.

If Australia can have a "model railway golden age" then so can other countries outside of the USA. I suspect that most of the 60 will prove to be companies similar to Austrains or Trainorama, catering for a limited market in their own country.
"hanovale"


ATM we are working on a lot of speculation, & my thought is, & based on the fact of the MR NEWS, is that SDK has/had around 80 companies on their books. OF those 20 are seen as Key clients, (using the term from the Austrains web site) with 60 others of varying degrees of busines, as a result these 60 companies were sent out letters regarding their futures.

Out of those 60, there have been several who seemingly have been told to look elsewhere, for future production as SDK would not be taking any new future orders from them.  That is all we know out in the public arena ATM with any certainty.

Given that the 3 OZ companies who use SDK currently, Austrains, Eureka & TOR, have in the past few years, (prior to the Olympics as well since Kader has taken over the control of SDK) suffered a lot of delays as well as other issues, reported & not, which I dare say has happened with others as well.  In the US there are some reports of complaints from modellers who have suffered delays as well.

I would therefore hazard to speculate, that the 20 main companies Key clients, who have a constant flow of models that are wanted, which would include our 3, have suffered as a result of the others, especially the smaller ones who jump in on a more infrequent basis & wanting production items, this results in the people at SDK having to try & allocate staff to them.  In this arena, I would suggest that they are mainly the ones being given the boot.

So even though 60 have received letters, I would imagine there are those who have been told to look elsewhere from now, some for new projects, but I would also sugges that some (larger clients) may well have been asked what their future plans were in regard to product flow.

It is nothing more than happens in many industries, & those who can have a constant flow of regular clients can have a better futures forcast & surety than those that rely on the blow fly types, that is they come in at the worst time possible & disrupt, with lots of noise, & desease, which can cause health problems, apply that to a company, & its also a reason to ensure good insect screens on doors & windows.

On top of all of that, Bachmann industries themselves are also experiencing growth in not just the western world of model railways, but also in domestic Chinese model railway items, which I have as my 2nd option.  

Few would not have missed reading about how the economy in China has grown & affluence has also grown. This means that things like MR's which we in the west have enjoyed for years, & unafordable in China, is now well within the reaches of a huge population over there, & they (Bachmann China, Haidar & others) are also now selling in big numbers to the locale populance, as they get the model bug.

Bachmann China, cannot keep up with production of their models, especially in steam locomotives & many items of R/S. Thus its cheaper to be able to utilise production facilities for their own branded products, then to build new ones, especially when a factory may well be held up by unreliable infrequent contracts from foriegners.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga


I do think that Craig has got it right though, with so many larger companies dumped, I was even surprised Austrains were retained.
"comtrain"


So Rod, what do  you know that hasn't made it onto the internet? Which "larger companies" have been dumped? The list I've seen is Weaver, S Helper Services, American Models, Bowser, Micro-Trains, Marklin/Trix, Des Plaines Hobbies and Deluxe Innovations. For the most part these are not big companies. Bowser apparently had almost nothing still with Sanda Kan, having moved all new work to another manufacturer. Marklin/Trix has admiitted to having some jobs with Sanda Kan but less than 7% of turnover. They also claim that they have been looking around for other manufacturers. Micro-Trains also apparently have litte if anything left with Sanda Kan.

There are still a lot of the purported 60 dumped companiees that haven't come forward but if there was a big company with a large amount of Sanda Kan production in there I think we'd know by now. Remember also that the news is mostly coming from a single American publication that is not likely to report problems for companies that don't produce American prototype.

If Australia can have a "model railway golden age" then so can other countries outside of the USA. I suspect that most of the 60 will prove to be companies similar to Austrains or Trainorama, catering for a limited market in their own country.
"hanovale"


Hi Roger
Mate, the only thing I am working from is the two US magazines, who seemed to talk up a few of the listed Companies, (and talk down Kadee Micro Scale)
And I suspect that people in the trade know a lot more than we can, sitting on the side lines, with curiosity and imagination, both peaked Smile
Interestingly, and supporting your comments, very few names were mentioned, and if their were 60 names on the cull list, are they (US mags) suffering from a lack of information, like we are in Australia, or are as you suggest Sanda Kan servicing a lot of tiny companies.
Austrains recently released spare skewed armature motors to a Spanish Company, due to a shortage of motors, according to customers who were unable to source spares, and reported here.
So with strong model railway markets in some South American Countries, as well as Canada, France Germany and other European countries it would be interesting to know what was out there for sale Smile
Cheers
Rod
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
OnTrack bypassed all the rules with the GLX/LLV's and just arrived when ready, SDS have pretty much done the same with their  various containers showing production ready samples, and even Auscision have also managed to sneak an unannounced model (steel butterbox) to the final sample stage before letting us in on the secret. In the case of the 73's we've gone from first announcement to showing of CAD drawings to having a sample model in just 5 weeks! Clearly the 'rules' are not being followed on this one either!!!
"Poath Junction"


You cannot really compare the delivery performance of a manufacturer producing rolling stock with one producing locomotives. Not all the Chinese manufacturers will tackle a powered model, and there are many who are happy to just do plastic model assembly. Sure, you can get a rolling stock item out in a short time, and if you wanted a model car you could probably have that pretty quick too.
"TheBlacksmith"


History has shown it usually takes just as long to get a rollingstock item to manufacturing stage as it does to get a loco done. A loco has a few wires and worm gears that a carriage doesn't but apart from that they're really just the same thing from a designers perspective.

As for little model cars, the delay between announcement, first test shots and final model appearing is currently longer than the delays trains are experiencing.
  Albert Chief Commissioner

TOR has a couple of updates

NSWGR 48 now 3rd quater 2011

PHG/MHG March 2011
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
TOR has a couple of updates

NSWGR 48 now 3rd quarter 2011

PHG/MHG March 2011
"Albert"


From the previous advice the 48 has slipped about 10 months and the PHG/MHG about 6 months (so far).  How far has the GM slipped, 2012?

Sanda Kan must be the manufacturer.  ;o))

I will be interested to see when they do eventually appear, another 12 months after the current anticipated dates??
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
TOR has a couple of updates

NSWGR 48 now 3rd quarter 2011

PHG/MHG March 2011
"Albert"


From the previous advice the 48 has slipped about 10 months and the PHG/MHG about 6 months (so far).  How far has the GM slipped, 2012?

Sanda Kan must be the manufacturer.  ;o))

I will be interested to see when they do eventually appear, another 12 months after the current anticipated dates??
"c3526blue"


And do you know who is crying more than all of us put together?
The people who paid out many thousands of dollars all these years and have nothing to sell to recover their investments.
Wonder if Trainorama made the cut with Sanda Kan? sounds ominous because surely they would have made an announcement by now?
Cheers
Rod
  J514 Deputy Commissioner

Location: somewhere on the broad gauge
I realy feel for all the people like you Rod
it's a bloody joke how you have all been led along
it makes me wonder how some if these guys sleep at night.
The other thing is they all make out they are doing us all a favour.
Bringing models out. Im sure they don't do it for no profit.
If any other businesses treated their customers the way us model railroaders get treated they wouldn't have a business.
This post is not directed at any one company ad there seems to be a few in this small industry.
  alltrainzfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Here
I realy feel for all the people like you Rod
it's a bloody joke how you have all been led along
it makes me wonder how some if these guys sleep at night.
The other thing is they all make out they are doing us all a favour.
Bringing models out. Im sure they don't do it for no profit.
If any other businesses treated their customers the way us model railroaders get treated they wouldn't have a business.
This post is not directed at any one company ad there seems to be a few in this small industry.
"J514"
Are you in manufacturing? Do you know about these delays?

I want my models too and have been waiting for years. But if the factory screws around then we can't do anything but wait unfortunately. I don't think it is the manufacturer's best interests to delay it either. Smile
  tajamr Chief Train Controller

Location: Putting up with AC4000's crap
I realy feel for all the people like you Rod
it's a bloody joke how you have all been led along
it makes me wonder how some if these guys sleep at night.
The other thing is they all make out they are doing us all a favour.
Bringing models out. Im sure they don't do it for no profit.
If any other businesses treated their customers the way us model railroaders get treated they wouldn't have a business.
This post is not directed at any one company ad there seems to be a few in this small industry.
"J514"
Are you in manufacturing? Do you know about these delays?

I want my models too and have been waiting for years. But if the factory screws around then we can't do anything but wait unfortunately. I don't think it is the manufacturer's best interests to delay it either. Smile
"alltrainzfan"


You seem to have all the answers , you tell us.
  J514 Deputy Commissioner

Location: somewhere on the broad gauge
Are you in manufacturing? Do you know about these delays?

I want my models too and have been waiting for years. But if the factory screws around then we can't do anything but wait unfortunately. I don't think it is the manufacturer's best interests to delay it either. Smile

If you know something we all dont then thats nice. It does not change the way that we are treated. The lack of communication and information from people in this industry is appalling. It seems to be a matter of hand over your money and pray that one day you will receive something.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I realy feel for all the people like you Rod
it's a bloody joke how you have all been led along
it makes me wonder how some if these guys sleep at night.
The other thing is they all make out they are doing us all a favour.
Bringing models out. Im sure they don't do it for no profit.
If any other businesses treated their customers the way us model railroaders get treated they wouldn't have a business.
This post is not directed at any one company ad there seems to be a few in this small industry.
"J514"
Are you in manufacturing? Do you know about these delays?

I want my models too and have been waiting for years. But if the factory screws around then we can't do anything but wait unfortunately. I don't think it is the manufacturer's best interests to delay it either. Smile
"alltrainzfan"


You seem to have all the answers , you tell us.
"tajamr"


What a great call!!!  Like many others over the years I supported each of the manufacturers in all the rubbish that was going on, I had money invested in models that finally came after long delays. I saw much of it as delays caused by design changes, & some of those changes were in fact a reason, however for some time now I have had doubts in regard to it all, & have expressed them in several posts.

I also was critical of the delays, but more so of the lack of information & updates in regard to what was going on, the former it now shows is not really the fault of the importers. but the info could have still been better.

For mine, the delays are laid firmly at the feet of the Chinese factoriies for no other reason they acted like polititions in constant election mode, with promises - promises & a few more in what they could do for the Oz modeller, the problem now shows is that they were offering the same promises to many others from around the world.

Look also back to pre Biejing olympics where the country was desperately short of workers, in order to put on a show for the world & ensure everything was just spot on, they took workers from mundane factories to ensure Biejing was finished.  Many of those were from factories like SDK, & they got better money & closer to their rural homes, a no brainer of where to go, all this at a time when the world was on a spend spend a more spending, after the Olympics the world crashed & we are reaping the effects still.

If one looks at all the news from each of the SDK dealers, you will see the amount of delays, & also the huge changes at SDK with a lot of senior changes taking place, not only that look what took place when Kadar industries took control from the US banking high flying bank who wanted out (Morgan Stanley, previous owners of SDK).

With SDK now back in the hands of Chinese ownership, & they also own the vested interests in the Bachmann group of companies that survived the financial crisis very well, & with more affluant Chinese citizens also now able to take part in the hobby of MR's, & unable to keep up production of Chinese National Railways (CNR) models for international & the domestic market, they now had the resources of their new aquisitions, instead of having to build new ones for the supplies.

Read the news also about, how many companies used SDK, & it mentioned 80, of which 60 were given notices of termination, & one can say it was a well orchestrated plan, & when one considers the model delays to each of the 3 OZ importers it shows that they are small fry.

Consider also that none of the 3 companies, Austrains, Eureka & TOR stand to gain nothing from these delays, I cannot see any reason for them to be jumping for joy over what has happened, & rest assured what I have mentioned is more than likely only a small part in what has happened.

Every delay to a models arrival places them under financial stresses as they are getting absolutely nothing in return for the money they have put up fron & in progress payments that are required during the process once the plans & tooling starts off & progresses.

The money that TOR has paid SDK for the work done so far on the vans & 48, is essentially dead money, & they require the models to come out to go towards the next lot of models, that is the same with Austrains & Eureka as well.
  J514 Deputy Commissioner

Location: somewhere on the broad gauge
The way things are going, it nearly seems viable to try and get things made here then. With the Chinese standard of living moving up and lifting prices and causing them to pick and choose who they deal with. Surely the lost money and interest lost on the monies invested it would give someone in Australia a chance to compete.
  Dazz Deputy Commissioner

At the end of the day what can you do?

I paid for a 48 almost two years ago, but that was my choice based on the knowledge that it may not turn up when it should. But it will turn up one day.

I don't believe that Toms, Auscision, Eureka, Austrains etc like the delays in production any more than the customers, but once again, what can they do?

I'm sure if you really wanted to you could get your money back, and then when they come in go and pay it again for the same product.

I'd rather have the high quality models we know have coming, and have to wait, than go back twenty years were things appeared quicker but were of far less value for money.

This is a hobby that most are into for life, so unless you are unfortunate to be at an age that you may not be around in another twelve months, I personally don't think it's that much of an issue.

At the moment my waiting for tally is 1x48, 1x81, 1x422 and 2x40's, but I know in my own personal situation, if I hadn't have paid for them all a while ago, I would have spent the money on something else, and with house renovations happening at the moment there is no way I'd be able to buy them at the moment, and would then risk missing out.

So all in all I don't mind the trade off of waiting a bit longer.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The way things are going, it nearly seems viable to try and get things made here then. With the Chinese standard of living moving up and lifting prices and causing them to pick and choose who they deal with. Surely the lost money and interest lost on the monies invested it would give someone in Australia a chance to compete.
"J514"


Not much chance of that, we cannot compete with the Chinese any more due to the fact that our plastics manufacturing industry has been run down and robbed of workers, plant and resources by the move to have products made in China.

Yep, we are now reaping the reward of the plastic fantastic from China.
  J514 Deputy Commissioner

Location: somewhere on the broad gauge


Not much chance of that, we cannot compete with the Chinese any more due to the fact that our plastics manufacturing industry has been run down and robbed of workers, plant and resources by the move to have products made in China.

Yep, we are now reaping the reward of the plastic fantastic from China.


Yeah I guess so, same as all industries, its just about at the stage where the only way to make money here is to be in transport as all we need is shipped in its like a holiday Island ship it all in and don't produce anything.
You only got to look at the Victorian government, they by their trains overseas, whereas they could have built here, it was good enough for the Velocity trains.

I know of one supplier of plastic injection models that uses Australians, and I will continue to support him rather than others for any comparable rolling stock.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
As far as I am aware, this is the first time the railways in Victoria have shipped in nearly complete trains from overseas. Up until now, all trains for local consumption have been at least partially built here.

Who is responsible for this, the Victorian government or the train operator? Any government would previously have insisted the trains are made here, now they simply roll over on the deal. Pretty poor show.

And Sydney are no better, having their new trains made in China.

Isn't that a little reminiscent of problems in the model world?

Maybe next the Australian people will be asked to pay up front for trains made in China, then find the delivery blows out for 10 or so years.
  mitch01 Train Controller

Location: Sebastopol, Vic
Yay lucky me i have been waiting for 2 R's since 2006.
And with little or no informatiion from Mr C at times i get a little frustrated.

I guess it is like MR Austrains says they will get here when they are good and ready and not a minute sooner.

Lindsay
  J514 Deputy Commissioner

Location: somewhere on the broad gauge
Yay lucky me i have been waiting for 2 R's since 2006.
And with little or no informatiion from Mr C at times i get a little frustrated.

I guess it is like MR Austrains says they will get here when they are good and ready and not a minute sooner.

Lindsay
"mitch01"

Yeah but according to people on here you are not aloud to complain just keep quiet and keep your frustrations to yourself.

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