Melbourne to Sydney in one P/N shift

 
  BFCYU Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney "Sutherland Shire"
Hi;

I noticed that Pacific National
are or were in the process of closing down the
Junee depot/crews for the Intermodal (container) train services.
(no more half way km point to change crews)

The P/N reason being only one train crew all the way;
ie Melbourne to Sydney with no relief crew point change enroute.
(ie. two qualified drivers=6 hours each driving upto max. 12 hours total)

Just wondering;
has that happened?
If so how is the process going?
(sounds like the relief crew would have to chase them by car
before they "bust" on the 12th hour)

Tell us if you know anything. (or fatigue factor index etc)

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  vx255 Junior Train Controller

Location: Berwick, Victoria
Do loco drivers come under the same kind of Fatigue Management guidelines that road transport drivers comply with?

here's a link to the basic one.

http://www.ntc.gov.au/viewpage.aspx?documentid=1499

Sorry, doesn't answer BFCYUs question, but I'd be interested to know.

rgds Eddie
  X_Class Junior Train Controller

Location: Hunter Valley
A long way off... In the meantime, PN are internally advertising for 2 part time drivers at Junee. If anything they will probably try and make Junee-Melbourne driver only as they can easily and consistantly do it under 9hrs.

As for fatigue guidelines, we get hammered with it at a ridiculous level. It has a massive affect on earning ability and does nothing to reduce fatigue as the system does not recognised pattern of sleep and rewards rosters that bring you in on availability (ie 11hrs off) and chop and change you between night/day/arvo/early morning etc!
  Termite Chief Commissioner

Location: NSW
X_Class,

I don't know which system your fatigue is run under, but the most common is FAID which does not allow the chopping and changing so much. It only allows a driver to do 3 night shifts in a row before the driver starts running "hot" in the system.

2 sign on's in the one day it doesn't like either. The more time off a driver has, the more flexible the system can be.

The downside to FAID is that it doesn't work to realities, only the time you have off. And the 0400-0500 issue, the system says at 0359 you may be fatigued, but at 0405 it can say you are over-fatigued and shouldn't be at work. In reality, how can 6 minutes make such a difference.

Now for BFCYU's original question, I'm thinking maybe with the track improvements, they are hoping to get the trip down to a respectable time now that could see Sydney and Melbourne crews make the most distance in their shift span, why pay a crew 4-6 hours pay when you can get a train to it's destination or near enough to within 10hours? It's all about getting the most out of your allocated resources.

Regards
Tim
  FieldShunt74 Chief Commissioner

I've heard that they still plan to run Sydney - Junee, Junee - Melbourne (and vice versa), so no through running.  They just wanted to get rid of the Junee based drivers, so the place would just be a book-off location for Sydney and Melbourne.  Neither of those are qualified past Junee.  What would happen when the Melbourne crew busted at Wagga Wagga and the Sydney crew sitting in the motel were unqualified to go and relieve them was never adequately explained.  New crew from Melbourne in a call car, anyone?

PacNat management don't seem to be big on logic, but they are full of ideas.
  Onelongwhistle Junior Train Controller

I've heard that they still plan to run Sydney - Junee, Junee - Melbourne (and vice versa), so no through running.  They just wanted to get rid of the Junee based drivers, so the place would just be a book-off location for Sydney and Melbourne.  Neither of those are qualified past Junee.  What would happen when the Melbourne crew busted at Wagga Wagga and the Sydney crew sitting in the motel were unqualified to go and relieve them was never adequately explained.  New crew from Melbourne in a call car, anyone?

PacNat management don't seem to be big on logic, but they are full of ideas.
"FieldShunt74"


Perfect example last week with 6CM3 parting Ettamogah-Albury section and four hour delay. The XW was in the loop at Albury waiting line and they busted seeing they were only an 80km/h runner.

Also PN is looking at DOO form MFT - Goulbourn and SFT - Seymour. The idea of this is Doo to each location book off and a two person crew comes out runs the train in gets stripped loaded, FX and back to the book off location where the driver would have had his 11 hrs off.
But this is still a fair way off with all the mud holes and speed restrictions in place.
OLW
  BFCYU Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney "Sutherland Shire"
Mind me asking Onelongwhistle.

What are the requirements (if any) for DOO (driver only order) trains.
esp. for lengthy locomotive hauled freight trains---ie not passenger,
and does each State differ, ie. NSW & VIC.
or does it all come under the requirements of ARTC.
  X_Class Junior Train Controller

Location: Hunter Valley
X_Class,

I don't know which system your fatigue is run under, but the most common is FAID which does not allow the chopping and changing so much. It only allows a driver to do 3 night shifts in a row before the driver starts running "hot" in the system.

2 sign on's in the one day it doesn't like either. The more time off a driver has, the more flexible the system can be.

The downside to FAID is that it doesn't work to realities, only the time you have off. And the 0400-0500 issue, the system says at 0359 you may be fatigued, but at 0405 it can say you are over-fatigued and shouldn't be at work. In reality, how can 6 minutes make such a difference.

Now for BFCYU's original question, I'm thinking maybe with the track improvements, they are hoping to get the trip down to a respectable time now that could see Sydney and Melbourne crews make the most distance in their shift span, why pay a crew 4-6 hours pay when you can get a train to it's destination or near enough to within 10hours? It's all about getting the most out of your allocated resources.

Regards
Tim
"Termite"


At Pt Waratah (like all of PN) we use FAID. We get constantly lifted up and practically on availability each day. Its THE MOST "FATIGING" rostering Ive ever had!

At Clyde we had the least REAL fatigue probably of any depot, but FAID reckoned we peaked at about 100 nearly every week...
  Onelongwhistle Junior Train Controller

Mind me asking Onelongwhistle.

What are the requirements (if any) for DOO (driver only order) trains.
esp. for lengthy locomotive hauled freight trains---ie not passenger,
and does each State differ, ie. NSW & VIC.
or does it all come under the requirements of ARTC.
"BFCYU"


Its one of the appendices of each EA so hae a look at FWA.
And lets face it if you can do DOO from Adelaide to Pt Agusta you can do it anywhere, remeber the old Bandiana and Maryborough grainy's were DOO.
  Termite Chief Commissioner

Location: NSW

At Pt Waratah (like all of PN) we use FAID. We get constantly lifted up and practically on availability each day. Its THE MOST "FATIGING" rostering Ive ever had!

At Clyde we had the least REAL fatigue probably of any depot, but FAID reckoned we peaked at about 100 nearly every week...
"X_Class"


X_Class,

I could probably help you out abit more if you want to PM me. But I have to agree, that roster is a tough one to work to.
  BFCYU Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney "Sutherland Shire"
Mind me asking Onelongwhistle.

What are the requirements (if any) for DOO (driver only order) trains.
esp. for lengthy locomotive hauled freight trains---ie not passenger,
and does each State differ, ie. NSW & VIC.
or does it all come under the requirements of ARTC.
"BFCYU"


Its one of the appendices of each EA so hae a look at FWA.
And lets face it if you can do DOO from Adelaide to Pt Agusta you can do it anywhere, remeber the old Bandiana and Maryborough grainy's were DOO.
"Onelongwhistle"


It's about 5 years since i left the NSW railways;
and I suppose a lot of things CAN happen even
in that short period of time.

I actually recalled, the NSW Safeworking requirement
to have as a train crew; 2 safeworking employees.
ie Freight Trains: Driver and assistant.
   Passenger Trains: Driver & Guard or safeworking attendant (eg XPT)

This was not only for normal safewoking (eg signal box etc)
but also in an emergency, eg train protection (det's) etc.

What now is the requirement DOO when a lengthy freight train (eg 1500 metres)
becomes disabled in the section. (needs train protection)
whether single line or double line.

Do they use radio advise only?
(which can very risky)
  Ads Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
BFCYU I can't answer your above question, however in regards to your original question, I have 'heard' that the closure of PN's Junee depot is because the plan is to move to Goulburn to use that depot as the change over location or 'half-way-point'.

I found it a strange decision, although the DOO run idea now makes some sense; also there was a suggestion that the plan was to run crews Melbourne-Goulburn-Broadmeadow - although quite a few variables to coinsider there.

All rumour by the way.
Time will tell.
  Wrigleys Chief Train Controller

BFCYU I can't answer your above question, however in regards to your original question, I have 'heard' that the closure of PN's Junee depot is because the plan is to move to Goulburn to use that depot as the change over location or 'half-way-point'.

I found it a strange decision, although the DOO run idea now makes some sense; also there was a suggestion that the plan was to run crews Melbourne-Goulburn-Broadmeadow - although quite a few variables to coinsider there.

All rumour by the way.
Time will tell.
"Ads"


Junee will not be closing, Junee PN depot will be taking on the operation of the Patrick MC / CM job.
  Stepto Assistant Commissioner

Tell us if you know anything.
"BFCYU"


Coota is the depot closing.

As for the east coast Interstate trains - the plan is Driver/Driver in the three 12 hours corridors - Melbourne to Goulburn, Golborn to Taree, Taree to Brisbane!
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Coota is the depot closing.
"Stepto"


Interesting - I notice that PN usually have locos stabled between jobs at Coota, plus the fuel point and stored rolling stock. Will these things continue to be based at Coota, or will they move the locos and rolling stock down to Junee. Is there a fuel point at Junee?
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Coota is the depot closing.
"Stepto"


Interesting - I notice that PN usually have locos stabled between jobs at Coota, plus the fuel point and stored rolling stock. Will these things continue to be based at Coota, or will they move the locos and rolling stock down to Junee. Is there a fuel point at Junee?
"Raichase"


Sure is a fuel point at Junee Trent up at loco.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Coota is the depot closing.
"Stepto"


Interesting - I notice that PN usually have locos stabled between jobs at Coota, plus the fuel point and stored rolling stock. Will these things continue to be based at Coota, or will they move the locos and rolling stock down to Junee. Is there a fuel point at Junee?
"Raichase"


Sure is a fuel point at Junee Trent up at loco.
"42101"


I thought there would have been, cheers mate. Is this similar to the one at Cootamundra, or is it owned by JRW? Ie, could PN fuel there, or would they continute to fuel at Coota, just not have the crew based there?
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Trent
As far as i know its still owned by JRW and i would say its like a servo mate you got the cash we got the fuel..i dont think they care who buys their fuel same as Parkes anyone who needs it can fuel up there..
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Trent
As far as i know its still owned by JRW and i would say its like a servo mate you got the cash we got the fuel..i dont think they care who buys their fuel same as Parkes anyone who needs it can fuel up there..
"42101"


Makes sense! Thanks!
  Stepto Assistant Commissioner

Coota is the depot closing.
"Stepto"


Interesting - I notice that PN usually have locos stabled between jobs at Coota, plus the fuel point and stored rolling stock. Will these things continue to be based at Coota, or will they move the locos and rolling stock down to Junee. Is there a fuel point at Junee?
"Raichase"


Sorry, Coota may not be 100% closed. You have to consider there is different divisions within PN, like Coal, RB+G, Intermaodal, etc. So the aim is to reduce the staff at Coota considerably. As for the fueling, I remember there was a dedicated Bunded area opposite the station for Road Tanker fueling!
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding
Tell us if you know anything.
"BFCYU"


Coota is the depot closing.

As for the east coast Interstate trains - the plan is Driver/Driver in the three 12 hours corridors - Melbourne to Goulburn, Golborn to Taree, Taree to Brisbane!
"Stepto"


Bollocks. Both Junee intermodal and Coota/Junee bulk are staying. The Melbourne-Goulburn-Taree running for intermodal has been canned.
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding

Sorry, Coota may not be 100% closed. You have to consider there is different divisions within PN, like Coal, RB+G, Intermaodal, etc. So the aim is to reduce the staff at Coota considerably. As for the fueling, I remember there was a dedicated Bunded area opposite the station for Road Tanker fueling!
"Stepto"


More rubbish. There is currently no plans to considerably reduce numbers at Coota.

There is no bunded area for fueling by road at Coota. It's all set up for rail delivery only, how ever as we can't get fuel by rail the current facilities are going to be upgraded to allow road deliveries.
  Stepto Assistant Commissioner

There is no bunded area for fueling by road at Coota.
"Fireman Dave"


That is true. I meant Junee yard has the bunded area.
  BFCYU Chief Train Controller

Location: Sydney "Sutherland Shire"
Tell us if you know anything.
"BFCYU"


Coota is the depot closing.

As for the east coast Interstate trains - the plan is Driver/Driver in the three 12 hours corridors - Melbourne to Goulburn, Golborn to Taree, Taree to Brisbane!
"Stepto"


Bollocks. Both Junee intermodal and Coota/Junee bulk are staying. The Melbourne-Goulburn-Taree running for intermodal has been canned.
"Fireman Dave"


That's good to know that Junee P/N intermodal is not closing.
+ Coota too, sometimes news gets around but ends up much wrong at the other end.

PS: I was under the impression too all Intermodal from the south & Melb.
went via Sydney Freight Terminal (SFT) @ Chullora, before going north,
ie Taree & Bris.

Why would they go direct Goulburn to Taree off the south Rolling Eyes
  broy Train Controller

Location: I know
Tell us if you know anything.
"BFCYU"


Coota is the depot closing.

As for the east coast Interstate trains - the plan is Driver/Driver in the three 12 hours corridors - Melbourne to Goulburn, Golborn to Taree, Taree to Brisbane!
"Stepto"


Bollocks. Both Junee intermodal and Coota/Junee bulk are staying. The Melbourne-Goulburn-Taree running for intermodal has been canned.
"Fireman Dave"


That's good to know that Junee P/N intermodal is not closing.
+ Coota too, sometimes news gets around but ends up much wrong at the other end.

PS: I was under the impression too all Intermodal from the south & Melb.
went via Sydney Freight Terminal (SFT) @ Chullora, before going north,
ie Taree & Bris.

Why would they go direct Goulburn to Taree off the south Rolling Eyes
"BFCYU"


Crew change.
City rail dont like freight doing crews changes out on the network.

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