New 80 km/h blanket speed Goulburn to Junee - for everything

 
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
I agree better alignments would be the Champaign option but I can only guess as to what that sort of budget it would run to and getting the funding would mean cuts in other areas and you already know my views on that .
"BDA"


Deviations are very expensive and have long lead times especially to resolve planning, environmental  and property resumption issues. I recall an ARTC document a few years back which listed numerous improvements including deviations with projected time savings/$  which they used to prioritise projects.

The sporadic funding model that ARTC must operate within makes it hard to undertake major $$$ infrastructure projects. After all the SSFL is predominately financed through bank borrowings.

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  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
It was always going to be fixable. ARTC was able to obtain billions of $ of long life capital assets. Pity the infrastructure was so run down by the previous state govs that they could do all that was required straight away. You can't turn around decades of neglect in a year or two.



Rolling Eyes
"cootanee"


I think it is more the fact that they keep insisting that side insertion is ok rather then accepting that it isn't and redoing the line properly as per railcorp these days.
"jedimasterc"



Railcorp...  Shocked

Whilst their stewardship of metro Sydney may be excellent - did its manifestations take the same approach to the DIRN in the two decades before the ARTC lease  Question

Did they actually have any strategy to improve rail freight within NSW or was it left to NRC and One Nation funding to get anything done (how hard was putting the Parkes  triangle in)  Question

I’m sure if ARTC had the same funding per km as Railcorp in metro Sydney they wouldn’t need to look for project cost savings. If the tables were turned and Railcorp were left to maintain the DIRN I suspect much of the south between Goulburn and Junee would be single lined by now with plenty of speed restrictions especially in summer and no upside in sight.  Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes
"cootanee"


I don't doubt that rural areas of rail had been underfunded by railcorp before being sold to the ARTC. What I mean is the method currently used by railcorp to lay rail, should be in use thoughout the standard gauge network by everybody.
  M636C Minister for Railways


I don't doubt that rural areas of rail had been underfunded by railcorp before being sold to the ARTC. What I mean is the method currently used by railcorp to lay rail, should be in use thoughout the standard gauge network by everybody.
"jedimasterc"


The only time I've ever seen one of RailCorp's tracklaying trains set up ready to go was a couple of years ago at Wyong. There had been an accident on the freeway and all road traffic was being diverted through Wyong on the old highway (which was pretty exciting in itself so I was happy to stop).

It was lined up in platform 1 ready to go and the track in the area it was to relay had been completely removed. Unfortunately nobody had thought to provide any rail for it to run on once the sleepers had been laid. I didn't wait to see how long it took to overcome that oversight but I assume the down main was back in place by Monday morning.

But those machines need a lot of preparation time and don't work very fast. Sydney Melbourne freight would have been diverted via Adelaide whenever one of those was working on single track.

If they had converted the NE Broad Gauge first, you could have rebuilt the original standard gauge with a tracklaying machine without stopping traffic altogether but it would have been a challenge to do Junee-Albury at all.

M636C
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned

I don't doubt that rural areas of rail had been underfunded by railcorp before being sold to the ARTC. What I mean is the method currently used by railcorp to lay rail, should be in use thoughout the standard gauge network by everybody.
"jedimasterc"


The only time I've ever seen one of RailCorp's tracklaying trains set up ready to go was a couple of years ago at Wyong. There had been an accident on the freeway and all road traffic was being diverted through Wyong on the old highway (which was pretty exciting in itself so I was happy to stop).

It was lined up in platform 1 ready to go and the track in the area it was to relay had been completely removed. Unfortunately nobody had thought to provide any rail for it to run on once the sleepers had been laid. I didn't wait to see how long it took to overcome that oversight but I assume the down main was back in place by Monday morning.

But those machines need a lot of preparation time and don't work very fast. Sydney Melbourne freight would have been diverted via Adelaide whenever one of those was working on single track.

If they had converted the NE Broad Gauge first, you could have rebuilt the original standard gauge with a tracklaying machine without stopping traffic altogether but it would have been a challenge to do Junee-Albury at all.

M636C
"M636C"


OH YES do tell us....perhaps you would like to check your facts about the Track laying machine....infront of the machine is a huge set of CAT tracks which it uses for crawling along the ballast capping dragging rails in from the sides of the 6 foot and placing these rails on the sleepers IT LAYS as it goes along placing a CONCRETE SLEEPER on the ballast capping EVERY 4 SECONDS.
  crypticone Chief Train Controller

Location: Blue Mtns
So with this sled, are they Wet Sledding or Dry sledding ??

Anyone know.

Regards
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
So with this sled, are they Wet Sledding or Dry sledding ??

Anyone know.

Regards
"crypticone"


Crypticone could you give us a quick run through on the use of the sled thanks mate as i never got to see it in use. Smile
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
... I don't doubt that rural areas of rail had been underfunded by railcorp before being sold to the ARTC. What I mean is the method currently used by railcorp to lay rail, should be in use thoughout the standard gauge network by everybody.
"jedimasterc"


It’s all well and good for us sit back to knowingly say – they should have used “the method currently used by railcorp to lay rail”. I agree there are plenty of things that should happen – but how about stepping back and trying to understand why not.

Over the past 7 years, federal grants and capital injections for ARTC have been doled out piecemeal for specific palatable ARTC initiatives.  I’m sure if ARTC turned around and said we can’t do anything for $200m we need $1b they wouldn’t get a cent.

ARTC had a choice - wait until 'one-day' when they might have accumulated enough money and politicians came around and then to 'do it properly' -  whilst the network continued to deteriorate or do what they could with the money on offer across its entirety - cheap and nasty as some believe.

Unlike its predecessors to do nothing wasn't going to be an option.
  Jeremy_Williams Junior Train Controller

I'll quickly explain why the state government is broke, spending money on stupid things and also making money by selling the large state owned assets that drew big income. You could use all the money from that to fix rail lines, not fix roads. Roads are damaged by trucks and d**kheads who like to play silly buggers.

ARTC has the rights to introduce a new speed limit, due to the poor track condition. Over my many years of life, I have seen this happen over and over again, but untill recently it's gotten beyond a joke, as Goulburn to Junee section carries alot of passengers, and frieght. Regards, Jerry
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
I'll quickly explain why the state government is broke, spending money on stupid things and also making money by selling the large state owned assets that drew big income. You could use all the money from that to fix rail lines, not fix roads. Roads are damaged by trucks and d**kheads who like to play silly buggers.

ARTC has the rights to introduce a new speed limit, due to the poor track condition. Over my many years of life, I have seen this happen over and over again, but untill recently it's gotten beyond a joke, as Goulburn to Junee section carries alot of passengers, and frieght. Regards, Jerry
"Jeremy_Williams"


Yes Wigum you go directly to parliment house in CANBERRA and tell GILLARD as ARTC you wombat is a FEDERAL goverment corporation.

Mind if we get back on track now that the kiddie foam is hosed off.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Whilst work still needs to happen to fix the remaining issues, in 7 years ARTC was able to procure funds for capital improvements that would only have been dreamed of under state government authorities. I wonder how much longer Wagga bridge would taken to be replaced.  Rolling Eyes

There is a disparity between funding of national highways and the DIRN given that state pays for maintenance of the highways out of its coffers but ARTC must rely on its revenue with nothing contributed by the state.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
The tracklaying machine in question is an amazing piece of gear to watch in action, it just rolls along dropping sleepers and pulling rail in from either side onto the sleepers, while blokes follow along clipping the rail down with machines that ride along the rail. It's amazing how fast the tracklaying machine works, given all the work that is done over a weekend shutdown - you'll often see the track down to the roadbed on a Saturday morning, only to have km's of gleaming new track, sleepers and ballast all ready to go on Monday morning.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The tracklaying machine in question is an amazing piece of gear to watch in action, it just rolls along dropping sleepers and pulling rail in from either side onto the sleepers, while blokes follow along clipping the rail down with machines that ride along the rail. It's amazing how fast the tracklaying machine works, given all the work that is done over a weekend shutdown - you'll often see the track down to the roadbed on a Saturday morning, only to have km's of gleaming new track, sleepers and ballast all ready to go on Monday morning.
"Raichase"


Was always interesting to watch as we passed on the HV track strengthening, especially when running to barracks at BMD,  & to then see the progress of where the ballast cleaner & track/sleeper relaying machines were some 10hours or so later.
  pollux1au Junior Train Controller

I'll quickly explain why the state government is broke, spending money on stupid things and also making money by selling the large state owned assets that drew big income. You could use all the money from that to fix rail lines, not fix roads. Roads are damaged by trucks and d**kheads who like to play silly buggers.



Two crew per train equals two votes per train. One driver per truck multiplied by how many trucks. Doesn't take much to work out which way the pollies will go.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
... I don't doubt that rural areas of rail had been underfunded by railcorp before being sold to the ARTC. What I mean is the method currently used by railcorp to lay rail, should be in use thoughout the standard gauge network by everybody.
"jedimasterc"


It’s all well and good for us sit back to knowingly say – they should have used “the method currently used by railcorp to lay rail”. I agree there are plenty of things that should happen – but how about stepping back and trying to understand why not.

Over the past 7 years, federal grants and capital injections for ARTC have been doled out piecemeal for specific palatable ARTC initiatives.  I’m sure if ARTC turned around and said we can’t do anything for $200m we need $1b they wouldn’t get a cent.

ARTC had a choice - wait until 'one-day' when they might have accumulated enough money and politicians came around and then to 'do it properly' -  whilst the network continued to deteriorate or do what they could with the money on offer across its entirety - cheap and nasty as some believe.

Unlike its predecessors to do nothing wasn't going to be an option.
"cootanee"


If you are going to do a job always do it properly the first time.

Get the proper machinery to do the job and do each section correctly from the start. Then you don't have to keep redoing the job.

That is how you save money. Not by building something that is broken from the get go.
  crypticone Chief Train Controller

Location: Blue Mtns
Sledding,

I will attempt to pass on my limited knowledge about sledding.

The sled is a steel plate, approx 3m wide and 2.5 to 3m long, not sure how thick, looks about 25mm.It has a small v section in the middle of the underside of the sled, and some tynes as well on the outer edge of the v, similiar to what is on a grader. There are also other variations and applications which I will try and explain later.

The sled is dug under the track, by hand, or by digging out the sleeper bays with a machine and then it is pushed under the track.They have been using a sled to remove some mud holes along with the gang that does there scratch outs.They have been pulling it with a loader.

Dry sledding is where the sled is dug under the track, and steel wire ropes are attached to lugs on the front sides of the sled, the ropes are then attached to a spreader bar that sits nearly on top of the rail and then two more ropes are attached to the towing implement, you then drag it forward, and the crib ballast falls behind the sled, and lifts the track by 50 to 100mm, the v on the sled cuts a furrow so that the sleepers don't get centre bound, and the tynes break up the base and allow the mud to go down wards.
You then run a ballast train and tamp, and you get a section of new ballast on top and the muddy/dirty ballast underneath.

Wet sledding is where you flood the track first and you have a bigger section of clean ballast , before filling the cribs and tamping.

It wont help with the wrecked formation, as it will not get down that deep, it only runs under the sleeper. The wrecked formation was caused by the FLIPPER or DUCK BILL attachment on the excavators, digging too deep into the formation.Note; Side Insertion was not the cause, it has been used for many years around the world, by both excavators and Tie Gangs.

They will have some problems, Sledding of Concrete sleepers will cause the sleepers to Bunch at the start of the sledding run and at the END of the sledding run, they will also break some, especially those that have been flogging in the mud holes, as timber and steel flex, concrete won't.And there concrete sleepers use the Fast Clip fastening system which is not as strong as the E-Clip or Fist Fastening used in QLD

There are other types of sleds as well, the ones used to rip up the line at Marree, check you tube for that video.

Also there is grainy vision on youtube, called Mighty Steel Goonyella at the 11.5 minute mark, this shows a sled on initial construction, which I think looks like two sleds connected together, with the back one, pushing the ballast out towards the shoulders.

I have a video called Just Australian Trains and that has I think the same vision.

Also Roberts construction used to wet sled in QLD in the 70's whilst construction, of the Coal Lines, it certainly saved the tampers lifting the track by 100mm at a time, on one section they constructed 148km in 6 months, with there SUM 100 Track Layer and 1 x 06 Tamper and 1 x Mark 3 Tamper as well, but no ballast could be run for 3 months, until they laid past the ballast pit, so sledding was the only way to meet the deadlines.

Also QR have a sled car, I saw it at Yukan a couple of years ago, it looks like  RailCorp Plough Van (New One) it has a sled underneath and a set of lifting clamps like a tamper as well.

RailCorp still have a couple of sleds, but they don't use them anymore due to safety concerns, (wire ropes breaking etc)

I have seen sledded track on the Nth Shore line in Sydney and you could clearly see where the muddy section was and the new section of ballast was on top.

If they sled, and maybe use the Shoulder ballast cleaner straight behind, they may have some success, but sledding alone will only give you a lift and some clean ballast, the underlying problem is still there.

I hope this helps.

Regards
  42101 Banned

Location: Banned
Crypticone
Thanks mate that was a brilliant description indeed and thanks for taking the time to write that out for us all Very HappyVery Happy  8) , that QLD sled vehicle sounds like it would be very handy.
  crypticone Chief Train Controller

Location: Blue Mtns
I have just found a photo of the QR sled car, MMY-9.

I can't post it, but someone out there may have a computer image of it.

Also I forgot to mention that sledding does not give you any cross fall, for drainage.

Also a problem at fixed points, turnouts,transom top bridges, level x-ings.

Regards
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
...
If you are going to do a job always do it properly the first time.

Get the proper machinery to do the job and do each section correctly from the start. Then you don't have to keep redoing the job.

That is how you save money. Not by building something that is broken from the get go.
"jedimasterc"


Not in triage   Shocked

7 YEARS AGO...

Faced with what ARTC got from Brisbane to Melbourne with the funding model it has, I can see why they took the big hit strategy along the entire network in an attempt to arrest and then turn around a network in decline.

In doing so they have been able to deliver numerous new and extended passing loops, bridge replacements, major comms and signalling upgrades, and millions of concrete sleepers with three times the life of timber – many things that will set them up with long term maintenance savings and (possibly) a financially sustainable future.

Supposedly doing a section at a time 'properly' sounds great in theory – like to know how that would have flown in its reality.

Problems manifesting themselves now are an indictment of how bad the infrastructure was allowed to get to over the past three decades – just look at how steel sleepers were laid by its predecessor not that long ago.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
...
If you are going to do a job always do it properly the first time.

Get the proper machinery to do the job and do each section correctly from the start. Then you don't have to keep redoing the job.

That is how you save money. Not by building something that is broken from the get go.
"jedimasterc"


Not in triage   Shocked

7 YEARS AGO...

Faced with what ARTC got from Brisbane to Melbourne with the funding model it has, I can see why they took the big hit strategy along the entire network in an attempt to arrest and then turn around a network in decline.

In doing so they have been able to deliver numerous new and extended passing loops, bridge replacements, major comms and signalling upgrades, and millions of concrete sleepers with three times the life of timber – many things that will set them up with long term maintenance savings and (possibly) a financially sustainable future.

Supposedly doing a section at a time 'properly' sounds great in theory – like to know how that would have flown in its reality.

Problems manifesting themselves now are an indictment of how bad the infrastructure was allowed to get to over the past three decades – just look at how steel sleepers were laid by its predecessor not that long ago.
"cootanee"


If the network was that bad then you pronounce it dead and look at starting fresh.

If we take your example of why ARTC did what they did then why didn't they use cheaper wooden sleepers until they could afford to properly drain, reballast and install concrete sleepers.

There was a lot of new/old concrete sleepers on the side of the track on my ride to and from melbourne in the XPT. I doubt that these have lasted 3 times as long as the wooden sleepers they replaced.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Most of those I think you'll find were the low profile concrete sleepers .
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
Here's a question for all of you:

Putting aside the question of cost for a moment, what would be the ideal situation on the coridoor?

How would we want it rebuilt, if we scrapped everything down to ground level and started the entire alignment from scratch?

For example, would we want the route built for 200kph at 30-tonne axle loads (to pluck some random numbers out of thin air), as a form of future-proofing? What would be required to achieve that, in terms of ballast depth, rail shape and weight and so on?
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
In my opinion 30TAL to 115 km/h would be adequate and its entirely possible with currently available concrete sleepers and 100 Kg rail .

The absolute best case scenerio would be some of the suggested deviations on the southern line built to US standards ie the 32.5 TAL and 68 Kg rail .
  cougar2010 Station Staff

A question to that US suggestion why do we need to deviate the exixting rail corridor, couldn't the present corridor be used and have the US model done.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
If cost was no issue than I would be doing a maglev between sydney and melbourne along the hume for passenger service. 1 maglev service could remove 4-5 planes from the air in 1 trip. 400km/h and no derailments.

Also fix the current line up to allow the xpt to operate near it's 200km/h capability and reduce that service's time down to about 6-7 hours. As well as allow faster and smoother tranport for goods
  SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
A question to that US suggestion why do we need to deviate the exixting rail corridor, couldn't the present corridor be used and have the US model done.
"cougar2010"

Because the existing route might have curves that are too tight for high speeds, so they need to be rerouted with preference for a more expensive, but straighter route.

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