Retiring of the 2000 class Railcars

 
  Brian 2009 Chief Commissioner

Location: N.S.W.
Gidday,

Is anybody able to advise the possible date that the 2000 class Railcars will be retired from the SA metro system.
Obviously it will depend on the arrival of the Electric Railcars and their testing period.
Can anybody advise on this possible date, or perhaps probable date.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Brian Leedham.

Sponsored advertisement

  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
Apart from 2009 that has already been retired, the last I have heard is 2018 (at the earliest) before anymore 2000/2100 class cars will retire, and as cosmetic refurbishments have restarted this could extend further, the only lines that will be electric initially will be Seaford and Gawler Central, and these will use all the plan new electric cars (and some), the much vaunted rebuild of 3000/3100 cars to electric is still thus far just talk, I think the "Indian Summer" of 2000/2100's will continue a fair while yet.
Bear in mind Jumbos' from same builder and similar age to NSW V cars, so structurally still pretty sound............and ride infinately better that 3000/3100's.

Gidday,

Is anybody able to advise the possible date that the 2000 class Railcars will be retired from the SA metro system.
Obviously it will depend on the arrival of the Electric Railcars and their testing period.
Can anybody advise on this possible date, or perhaps probable date.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
Brian Leedham.
"Brian 2009"
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".

They might even last beyond 2018 as well as the Outer Harbour line electrification has been put back so that means they may need the 2000/2100 cars to run this service till or if they ever electrify the Outer Harbour line. The  plan for the 3000/3100 is still staying the same that is 12 cars for the Belair service and the rest converted to electric.

So if they do not electrify the Outer Harbor line they will never be able to run it with only 12 3000/3100 cars as they would only just cover the Belair line use, so they may have to keep the 2000/2100 cars a little longer even though they are well past their use by dates. Just a thought.

  witsend Chief Commissioner

Location: Front RH Seat of a School Bus

They might even last beyond 2018 as well as the Outer Harbour line electrification has been put back so that means they may need the 2000/2100 cars to run this service till or if they ever electrify the Outer Harbour line. The  plan for the 3000/3100 is still staying the same that is 12 cars for the Belair service and the rest converted to electric.

So if they do not electrify the Outer Harbor line they will never be able to run it with only 12 3000/3100 cars as they would only just cover the Belair line use, so they may have to keep the 2000/2100 cars a little longer even though they are well past their use by dates. Just a thought.

"David Peters"


Conceivably, if the Outer Harbour Electrification has been delayed, by extension the conversion of all the specified 3000/3100 class will be delayed also.

Currently, all railcars can travel on all lines. You have 22 x 3 Car Sets that will only be able to travel on Noarlunga/Seaford and Gawler Central lines. If you convert the 3000/3100s early, you will actually have less flexibility in your fleet. There is nothing stopping you send a diesel electric along the electrified lines. Obviously, you can't send an electric train where there are no wires, because apparently they don't work so good. There probably would still be a need have some supplementary diesel services along those as well, whether by 3000/3100 or by 2000/2100. There would be less demand on these railcars by the A-City trains coming into service. Given that the 22 was specified to cover the Outer Harbour/Grange, Noarlunga/Tonsley and Gawler/Gawler Central service,

I'd assume that after delivery of a number of A-City Trains (I'd suggest all of them), you'd start to see the 2000/2100 retired.



  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud


I'd assume that after delivery of a number of A-City Trains (I'd suggest all of them), you'd start to see the 2000/2100 retired.


"witsend"


I'm beginning to doubt that electrification will happen other than on the main north/south route and even that will be a struggle.  They might get around to completing Gawler/Seaford but the rest of the network maybe not at all; given the state government is presently engaged in a fire-sale of any remaining assets left after the privatisations of Olsen/Rann there would seem to be a real lack of money available to complete public transport projects (especially after they blew squillions on the new hospital, the South Road "super-way" and the Southern Expressway duplication).  The problem is that there's bugger all left to sell off after 20 years of asset-stripping.  Presently they are looking at flogging off what's left of SA Forests to the Chinese and after that maybe selective Housing Trust sales but there's pretty much nothing else left they can sell given that the ports, gas, electricity etc are already long gone.  The SA Govt is also suffering from the same problems that most other states are in that GST revenues are plummeting, stamp duties are stalled because house prices are in reverse and payroll tax is also falling because unemployment is on the way up.  All this would add to to delayed infrastructure projects and delivery dates being pushed out further and further.

So yeah, bottom line is that I would expect the Jumbos will be around till well after 2018 - even if the A-Class trains actually arrive as expected from next year.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".



I'd assume that after delivery of a number of A-City Trains (I'd suggest all of them), you'd start to see the 2000/2100 retired.


"witsend"


I'm beginning to doubt that electrification will happen other than on the main north/south route and even that will be a struggle.  They might get around to completing Gawler/Seaford but the rest of the network maybe not at all; given the state government is presently engaged in a fire-sale of any remaining assets left after the privatisations of Olsen/Rann there would seem to be a real lack of money available to complete public transport projects (especially after they blew squillions on the new hospital, the South Road "super-way" and the Southern Expressway duplication).  The problem is that there's bugger all left to sell off after 20 years of asset-stripping.  Presently they are looking at flogging off what's left of SA Forests to the Chinese and after that maybe selective Housing Trust sales but there's pretty much nothing else left they can sell given that the ports, gas, electricity etc are already long gone.  The SA Govt is also suffering from the same problems that most other states are in that GST revenues are plummeting, stamp duties are stalled because house prices are in reverse and payroll tax is also falling because unemployment is on the way up.  All this would add to to delayed infrastructure projects and delivery dates being pushed out further and further.

So yeah, bottom line is that I would expect the Jumbos will be around till well after 2018 - even if the A-Class trains actually arrive as expected from next year.
"don_dunstan"


 

You might be right here, as I too can see similar to that.

  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud



So yeah, bottom line is that I would expect the Jumbos will be around till well after 2018 - even if the A-Class trains actually arrive as expected from next year.
"don_dunstan"


You might be right here, as I too can see similar to that.

"David Peters"


David, it really disappoints me that SA has been going backwards since I left; I'd love to move back there one day but in my industry there's a lack of work opportunities and Melbourne just has so much more to offer such as public transport that doesn't go to once per hour after 7pm or on weekends.  If electrification does actually go ahead then the frequency needs to be the first thing they address; however as discussed I have a feeling it might not be going ahead now - at least not for the whole network and even if it does they might push it out to 2020.

The biggest problem with the Jumbos (as I understand it) is that they are real fuel guzzlers so if there's another spike in oil prices then they will cost even more to run... ridiculous in a city that size that they still have a half-arsed diesel rail system.  They really need to bite the bullet and get on with electrification of the whole network immediately in my opinion - it was more important to do that than any of those silly road projects especially with peak oil just around the corner.
  rhino Chief Commissioner

Location: Oakbonk SA
after the privatisations of Olsen/Rann
"don_dunstan"


What did Rann privatise?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".



So yeah, bottom line is that I would expect the Jumbos will be around till well after 2018 - even if the A-Class trains actually arrive as expected from next year.
"don_dunstan"


You might be right here, as I too can see similar to that.

"David Peters"


David, it really disappoints me that SA has been going backwards since I left; I'd love to move back there one day but in my industry there's a lack of work opportunities and Melbourne just has so much more to offer such as public transport that doesn't go to once per hour after 7pm or on weekends.  If electrification does actually go ahead then the frequency needs to be the first thing they address; however as discussed I have a feeling it might not be going ahead now - at least not for the whole network and even if it does they might push it out to 2020.

The biggest problem with the Jumbos (as I understand it) is that they are real fuel guzzlers so if there's another spike in oil prices then they will cost even more to run... ridiculous in a city that size that they still have a half-arsed diesel rail system.  They really need to bite the bullet and get on with electrification of the whole network immediately in my opinion - it was more important to do that than any of those silly road projects especially with peak oil just around the corner.
"don_dunstan"


Yes I agree with you all or nothing there is no in between really, but if they just do Seaford to Gawler Central electric then they will need something for the Outer Harbor line and Grange if they remain train lines that is. They might make them light rail  in the future who knows. I think they will need everything they have even when the new electric trains come on stream. Having 12 3000 type for the Belair line and the Jumbos on the Outer Harbor Grange lines might just let them scrape in a decent new timetable on all lines. Well one can hope anyway.

The Outer Harbor line needs something done to it and the cheapest way would be to convert it to light rail, more tram cars or light rail cars will be needed for this though. I think it was steam4ian that proposed this and also converting the Belair line to light rail which really sounds like a good idea if they intergrate these light rail into the greater tram system that has to come one day. Light rail can mean railcar type of cars not necessarily tram type cars. Maybe cars captive to the line or something in the future.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
With the new A Class trains, there are just enough trains to replace the Jumbos and to run the extra distance to Seaford. In other words they stuffed up as they forget to order a few extra trains to run the more frequent services.

Sure electric trains are faster and thusly you don't need as many, but the A class are fixed 3 car sets and even if they were 2 car sets you still might not have enough to go around. So expect the Jumbos to hang around until the government order a 2nd batch of A class trains.
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
Recently I've noticed that next to (just under) the drivers cabin of some Jumbos, there is a yellow camera on the outside (used to assist the driver when train has stopped) that looks like the ones seen on the refurbished Poxboxes (yellow coloured).

Does this mean that inside the drivers cab of the Jumbos in question, have those new touch-screen computers been installed (like on the refurbs)?

I know this question may be a bit tongue-tied.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

With the new A Class trains, there are just enough trains to replace the Jumbos and to run the extra distance to Seaford. In other words they stuffed up as they forget to order a few extra trains to run the more frequent services.
"fabricator"

Rubbish.

We're replacing 10 sets (2x two car, 7x three car, 1x four car) with 22 new electric multiple units. The extension to Seaford will take up a maximum of two of those 12 new units (a trip being only five minutes more than a trip to Noarlunga) which leaves 10 units left for increasing service frequency, lengthening two car services or doubling up premier peak services to 6 cars.

Availability could always be improved by reducing the time spent at Adelaide before heading out on another job, especially if the station approaches are untangled and each route always operated from the same set of platforms. There really does not need to be any more time spent out of service at a terminus than ten minutes, especially if the great innovation of drivers being in their seat and having everything set up before the scheduled departure time could be adopted.

Even if the decision is made to delay, postpone or cancel Outer Harbour electrification, that's hardly going to make a difference except for keeping a handful of the 3000/3100 class cars as DMUs for a longer period of time.

New trains more suited to outer suburban use (doors at the ends, toilets, high-backed 2+2 seating etc) could always be ordered if further extensions are made to the rail network. Any extension would take time to build, so there would be plenty of time to look around and see what designs could be bought off the shelf at that time.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
after the privatisations of Olsen/Rann
"don_dunstan"
What did Rann privatise?
"rhino"


Rann wasn't as prolific as his predecessors but did start the process to sell Forests SA which apparently is being continued by Jay Weatherill.  It's made people in the South East furious but unfortunately it's a really easy target and they don't hold any seats down there so there's a really strong chance it will go ahead ... last I heard it was full steam ahead for hundred year leases.
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
As a result of the 'suspension' of the Gawler/Outer Harbor electrification, looks like the retirement of the Mighty Jumbos will be postponed even further, possibly until about 2017/18.

If the SA Government did have the money, would be great if these railcars received over-hauls (better engines/equipment) to make them slightly more powerful/faster when leaving stations (accelerating).
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
My bet is on them being here until 2100 now...
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
I just read that replacing the transmissions would be both very hard and expensive, hence why 2009 was withdrawn in '97.

Just hope these 'legends' can continue to provide great service until the Gawler/Outer Harbor/Grange lines are (if ever?) eventually 'sparked up'.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Surely a number of the Jumbos will be made redundant by 3000/3100 class railcars surplus after the Noarlunga/ Seaford electrification?
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
That may be the case Bing, although it's unlikely that ALL of the A-City trains will be in service by the time the Seaford line opens. Wonder if diesels may venture down to Seaford if there aren't enough A-City trains delivered/in service, or if any Poxboxes will be 'sparked up' for that?

I believe that the Jumbos will be 'on the books' until at least 2018 (possibly in case there's some failure with the electric system/teething problems), so I'm predicting that there is still plenty of life left in the mighty Jumbos!
  witsend Chief Commissioner

Location: Front RH Seat of a School Bus
My bet is that no pox box will be sparked up with the recent suspension of electrification. With 22 electric trains to come online for the Noarlunga line, there shouldn't be any reason to do it. I'd venture that the 2000 and 3000/3100 diesels will venture to Seaford Until there is enough sparks to fully supplant them with a spare or two.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
My bet is that no pox box will be sparked up with the recent suspension of electrification. With 22 electric trains to come online for the Noarlunga line, there shouldn't be any reason to do it. I'd venture that the 2000 and 3000/3100 diesels will venture to Seaford Until there is enough sparks to fully supplant them with a spare or two.
"witsend"


Yes I think that it might happen like that the Electric cars just run the Adelaide Seaford service with 3000 type cars used elsewhere as much as possible and the Jumbo's kept just in case off and for any special services like hirings etc. Not that they get many of these special hiring trips now. So I have to say that Aaron could be right about them lingering on a lot longer, but probably not that long though. Laughing
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The question of when the Jumbos can be retired is a simple issue of mathematics. Once there are enough electric sets available that all Belair, Grange, Outer Harbour and Gawler line services can be 3000/3100 operated without compromising capacity, the Jumbos are no longer needed.

I've had a quick look at the Noarlunga weekday timetable (the normal one, not the current temporary one), and I reckon I've worked out that the largest number of trains needed at any one time on the Noarlunga/Tonsley lines is twelve. This is at 5:30 in the afternoon, and includes a train laid over at Tonsley to start at 5:31, and a train arriving in the city from Noarlunga at 5:27 with no more city departures to until 5:43.

What is critical is that this maximum number of trains needed for all Noarlunga services is larger than the maximum number of Jumbo sets available (7x 3 car + 4x 2 car = 11 sets, fewer if any of the 2 car sets are coupled to make 4 cars) so it basically means that all the other lines can be operated without needing any Jumbos. Therefore as soon as the whole Seaford and Tonsley timetable can be operated by the electric sets without needing any diesel support, the Jumbos can be retired and a small number of 3000/3100 cars become available to increase capacity or frequency on other lines. The minimum number of electric sets needed for this will probably be about 15, including adding a couple for the Seaford extension and one for reserve.

At that point, the bulk of the Jumbo fleet could be retired with just a few (3x 3 car sets perhaps?) remaining in use on daily Gawler peak expresses and as spares in case a large number of 3000/3100 cars are out of service. A small number of 3000/3100 cars would be freed from the Noarlunga line as well as the Jumbos means all the other lines could see a small increase in frequency or capacity as well as going to exclusively 3000/3100 operation.
  pigeon Locomotive Driver

Location: Looking for a decent photo location...
I've just posted in the Electrification of the Metro Network "Suspended" thread, but to repeat here, the Government is committed to the contract to purchase the new railcars (it cannot break the contract). As such, there will be a massive oversupply of trainsets for the Seaford line. I'll leace it to someone else to figure out if there will be enough 3000/3100 to service the remainder of the network to allow the Jumbo's to be retired.
  Sojourner Train Controller

One factor that could be considered is what is happening in terms of Growth of passenger numbers on the rail network in the state? Are all the various T.O.D's still going ahead? Much detail was given in the Messenger re the building around Noarlunga Oval that would be a mix of apartments and retail to compliment the rail service, but seems to have gone pretty quiet since. If those things were developed specifically around Rail as has been promised then it would be reasonable to suggest that more trains would be required to pick up the extra numbers, assuming the State Government are in fact interested and commited to increasing numbers on the network?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
While it might seem an over supply of actual cars one has to take into this that some cars will be in for service, some stored in case of breakdowns or failures. And the rest in service on not only Seaford to Adelaide, but Tonsley to Adelaide as well. Not that the Tonsley service will require many but it all adds up in the end. They will then or should be able to work out a new timetable for those lines that offers more trains on the line at any one time, well hopefully they can anyway. So it might be that with all they have on this line that it might just be enough to cover for any eventuality,  with some up their sleeve so to speak, well hopefully any way.

A speeded up timetable will require more trains and hopefully that is what they will work to. I have to admit though that there would quite a few spare sets sitting around though. But if they ever spark the Gawler line in the future at least they will not have to get anymore electric cars for a while if it is done in sections. Adelaide To Dry Creek is probably a must in the first place, then to Salisbury at least. Then they can extend up past Elizabeth or to Elizabeth and then finally to Gawler etc. Like what was planned in the first place.

I would also say now that this has hit the fan literally that the metro rails will remain Broad Gauge for a lot longer yet as well. As that is more expense that is not really needed to simply move commuters.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
That may be the case Bing, although it's unlikely that ALL of the A-City trains will be in service by the time the Seaford line opens. Wonder if diesels may venture down to Seaford if there aren't enough A-City trains delivered/in service, or if any Poxboxes will be 'sparked up' for that? I believe that the Jumbos will be 'on the books' until at least 2018 (possibly in case there's some failure with the electric system/teething problems), so I'm predicting that there is still plenty of life left in the mighty Jumbos!
"greasyrhys"


They don't need ALL of them, they only need ENOUGH of them, and If they don't have ENOUGH then it's a no brainer, diesels will run on the line Shocked no need to spark non spark trains for the futile excercise.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.