Pacific National orders PowerHaul locos

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 09 Jul 2016 19:53
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
PN traffic expanding on the Queensland Network?

@Sulla1

Pacific National orders PowerHaul locos

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  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Is this an admission, perhaps,  that the 88 class have 'not been entirely successful'?

EDIT 10/7 @ 1350:

The 88s may have been successful in killing the construction of EMD/GM locos in Australia but, perhaps, only partially successful in killing off GE construction here.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

The 10-million tonne QCoal Byerwen coal mine is about to open on the Newlands line and PN will definitely need a big reshuffle in power to service that mine...I suspect the PowerHauls will be part of the solution - possibly freeing up some of the Mt Isa line 83s for coal. To date I still haven't heard of the 88s being in regular service.
  BigTrain2015 Junior Train Controller

The 10-million tonne QCoal Byerwen coal mine is about to open on the Newlands line and PN will definitely need a big reshuffle in power to service that mine...I suspect the PowerHauls will be part of the solution - possibly freeing up some of the Mt Isa line 83s for coal. To date I still haven't heard of the 88s being in regular service.
Sulla1

The new mine line is no electrification?
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

No, the Newlands system hasn't been electrified. Of the four Aurizon coal systems, the Goonyella and Blackwater systems are electrified, and Newlands and Moura are diesel only.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Is this an admission, perhaps,  that the 88 class have 'not been entirely successful'?

EDIT 10/7 @ 1350:

The 88s may have been successful in killing the construction of EMD/GM locos in Australia but, perhaps, only partially successful in killing off GE construction here.
YM-Mundrabilla
Neither Downer nor UGL expect to build any locomotives in the future.

It is thought that UGL suggested that PN take all the unsold locomotives they had on hand as part of the deal for maintenance services. I suspect the price was pretty good.

Two of the new 93 class are the two units that sat around for a couple of years, for a while with the numbers GWA10 and 11. It isn't clear why these stayed in Broadmeadow while MRL, Fletchers and Crawford received newer locomotives.

The UGLs are more powerful than the 83 class and are similar in power to the 88 class. But there aren't enough of them (combined) to run more than two trains with three or four locos per train.

I too haven't seen any 88s working. In late June, 8803 and 8804 were sitting at the commissioning shed while 8805 was seen in Gladstone and later in Nebo, but never coupled to a complete train.

The LDPs are sitting around in Maryborough, mainly painted in blue and yellow, and I'd expect that if PN do need more locos they will be picked up as well.

M636C
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
So does EMD and GE see something in Australia's future that says no future demand for locomotives (impending recession - depression ?)
GS4
There's an SG motive power glut, simple as that. Hunter Valley coal isn't going gangbusters like it was a couple of years ago, which is where many of the UGL and EDI units were headed for. There are plenty of 3000HP 'heritage' mainline units around for the smaller operators to hire/buy for running new services.

A step-change in motive power demand would be needed to get new build manufacturing up and going again. That could be driven by new rail-served mining projects, Inland Rail, route improvements in the eastern states etc. It's not happening just yet though.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I'm not so sure there's a motive power glut - imo more a realisation that the ole' 3000 odd Hp units don't cut it any more .
I believe that most things up to and including the Ready Power relics are either too thirsty or don't have the performance needed in this day and age .
When a 90 class is sidelined by AC GEs and EMDs what hope does an 81 or 82 have against say NRs 93s or the GT46ACes .
If you remember the 3000HP units displacing 1800-2000HPs ones you'll realise the 4000+HP ones are putting the 3000s out to grass .
Super Series etc gave 3000HP units the ability to put more power to the rail and AC traction is doing the same thing for 4000+HP units . 4000HP DC units while not quite as good can at least hold their own in non heavy haul Intermodal service at the moment .
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
When a 90 class is sidelined by AC GEs and EMDs what hope does an 81 or 82 have against say NRs 93s or the GT46ACes .
BDA
The big difference is that those displaced 3000HP units are being kept around instead of being sent to Sims. There's always grain services and shunting to do, or smaller operators to fob them off to. The 90s are a special case because they aren't useful outside the Hunter.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Yikes !!  , , Clearance sale of the century !!  Usually it's only places like Rugs-A-Million that do a buy one, get one free deal !

So does EMD and GE see something in Australia's future that says no future demand for locomotives (impending recession - depression ?) , , , or are the American manufacturers so hard up for work that they are going to build more and more at home at the expense of overseas companies that used their components under license ?


Also if Goninans aren't going to be building locos is there any particular export GE's being pitched to Australian rail haul companies ?
GS4
There isn't enough business in Australia to keep building locomotives here.

Downer gave up first, now UGL.

Both EMD and GE have new assembly plants in cheap non-union labour areas and can build locomotives cheaper there than in Australia and there isn't much work for new locomotives in the USA. UP are buying 300 units this year and none next year and have hundreds of stored locomotives, as do the other major roads.

I don't know about the cost of shipping, but I can buy Californian Navel Oranges for less than the local product, so it might not be too bad.

EMD are, at least in theory, building three demonstrator locomotives for Australia right now.

I don't know what GE are doing, but EMD got all of Downer's designs and the new EMDs will look just like the GT46C-ACes.

I'd be surprised if GE didn't offer C44 aci units to anybody who asked.

M636C
  2LaGrange Train Controller

I'm hearing PN have signed a deal with UGL for 10 x C44 loco per year for the next 10 years which could possibly keep Broadmeadow Plant ticking over.

In the USA most GE export locos are built at their Erie Pennsylvania Plant so it is possible they could build C44s for Australia there.

Of interest Thomas Edison deliberately built one of his General Electric plants in Erie as there were no other Plants in the immediate area to compete with to obtain the workers required for his factory that many years later would end up building GE locomotives. The Erie plant is still a union work site with some workers still on production bonuses where they get paid per nut or bolt as a bonus on top of their base wage.

Most but not all US domestic GE locos are built at a new plant in Fort Worth Texas.

On the GT46Ace front the Progress Rail's Muncie Indiana USA plant has 3 x GT46Ace-2 for export to markets like Australia just about complete but not sure if or when they will come to OZ as demonstrators.

They were designed and built based on the Australian GT46Ace with some improvements to cab design etc.

The Muncie plant is a non-union site and is being set up as the export plant while the first few prototype SD70ACe-T4 US domestic locos were/are being built in Muncie most will be built at an existing Progress Plant in Mexico where labour is cheaper.
  NG Sulzers Deputy Commissioner

Location: Quorn
"Two of the new 93 class are the two units that sat around for a couple of years, for a while with the numbers GWA10 and 11. It isn't clear why these stayed in Broadmeadow while MRL, Fletchers and Crawford received newer locomotives."

GWA10, or more correctly GWA010 had been in service from 2012 on Southern Iron duties, now in general pool duties. Never sat around Broadmeadow at all. GWA011 was never built.
  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller

Location: On my office roof.
There are 2 weathered , primer painted C44s outside at Ugl at the moment. They have empty number boards. They may be the unsold GWUs. The PH37s are inside the sheds at the moment, 2 of them at least are still in demo colours.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

PN will be a stand alone company owned by Canadian pension funds after the split up of Asciano. Brookfield and Qube will be getting the port assets and won't have anything to do with PN. The long and short is that PN's corporate identity is probably not about to change.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

Yep, Stuart is the base for the 13 PNs allocated to the North Coast Line and eight 83s (8314-8321) allocated to the Mt Isa line (8314 is also regularly used on the NCL, particularly between Townsville and Cairns). Nebo looks after the remaining 38 83s used in the Newlands, Goonyella and Blackwater systems, plus the 42 71s used on the Goonyella system and five the problem child 88s. Nebo also maintains the 13 BMA electrics for BMA
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
WA has surplus motive power so won't be there.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
WA has surplus motive power so won't be there.
Trainplanner
AFAIK PN has no 1067mm gauge motive power in WA (or SA for that matter) at present. Thus if they have contracts there they will need some locos...
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
When a 90 class is sidelined by AC GEs and EMDs what hope does an 81 or 82 have against say NRs 93s or the GT46ACes .
The big difference is that those displaced 3000HP units are being kept around instead of being sent to Sims. There's always grain services and shunting to do, or smaller operators to fob them off to. The 90s are a special case because they aren't useful outside the Hunter.
LancedDendrite
I suppose 90s could be an upgrade proposition but the lighter ACs have better all round potential .
From an EMD perspective they may be better off rethinking the GT46ACE plan and consider the 1010 V12 because that's EMDs future . Domestically speaking the 710 has gone the way of the dinosaur , beaten to death by the Tier 4 club leaving the 2 strokes to wither on the spare parts vine .
  jmt Deputy Commissioner

I suppose 90s could be an upgrade proposition but the lighter ACs have better all round potential .
From an EMD perspective they may be better off rethinking the GT46ACE plan and consider the 1010 V12 because that's EMDs future . Domestically speaking the 710 has gone the way of the dinosaur , beaten to death by the Tier 4 club leaving the 2 strokes to wither on the spare parts vine .
BDA

Perhaps you can explain how the 1010 can be used in light line narrow gauge locos for use in Latin America and Africa, or Australasia for that matter?
Are you inferring that the 710 is an exclusive locomotive engine?

The 710 has a future in export locos, to those non-PC nations (most), who don't give a monkeys toss about emission standards, starting with Brazil and Saudi Arabia. Progress Rail is selling sufficient GT38/GT42/GT46AC, and AC/DC derivatives, to assure usage in new builds well into the future. Neither GE or EMD have lightweight medium speed Tier 4 engines on the horizon, the 7FDL/710 are the medium speed engines favored outside of North America and Europe

Others into marine and stationary engines can probably comment, but I believe that a Tier 4, IMO Ill version of the EMD 710 Series E23, using after treatment (urea) is being introduced for marine and stationary use. Refer page 5 http://www.stewartandstevenson.com/assets/files/downloads/literature/emd-products.pdf
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

I haven't seen any signs of the UGL's moving yet.  I did notice mid august that EFB5800 posted this photo,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/efb5800/28458169324

of a flat car at Goninans looking ready to transport 6 wheel bogies so maybe the locos will be towed.
Is it absolutely certain that they will be coming to Qld? I have not discounted SA and WA which have 3' 6" even though I don't know of any requirement for them.

While I'm here I guess the UGL's will become 89 Class.
GS4
While there has been no definitive information on the PowerHauls' future allocation, it is very unlikely they will go anywhere but North Queensland. In Western Australia they would be restricted to Brookfield's 20-tonne axle load lines, primarily Perth-Picton-Collie, and Karara-Geraldton over which Aurizon retains all of the current non-grain contracts (as far as I know). Likewise, only G&W's Whyalla narrow gauge network in South Australia could support the PowerHauls, and it is unlikely PN will find work on this network anytime soon.

The narrow gauge situation in Queensland is PN now hauls just under 60-million tonnes of coal, zinc concentrates and intermodal per annum, using 64 diesels and 42 electrics. Added to this, PN's QCoal contract is about to be boosted by another 10-million tonnes per annum when the Byerwen coal mine opens later this year on the diesel only Newlands system. The 88s were purchased to service the QCoal contract and given the 88s' ongoing issues, the PowerHauls will likely be allocated to Townsville (close to the UGL's Bohle plant) to free up Mt Isa line 83s for the Newlands System. As for numbering, I have heard PN will number them above the exisiting AC traction UGL/GE classes, so possibly the 94 or 95 class.
  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller

Location: On my office roof.
UGLy001 and 002 are getting dressed in PN paint, 003 is in the paint building still in demo paint, not for long.

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/efb5800/30192475206/
  M636C Minister for Railways

UGLy001 and 002 are getting dressed in PN paint, 003 is in the paint building still in demo paint, not for long.

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/efb5800/30192475206/
Thanks EFB5800, I will be at Nebo & Townsville in about a week so I'm a bit early for their arrival. I'll still try to seek out the 88's
GS4
The commissioning shed near the old Waitara coal loader is a good place to look for 88 class.

There have been some there when ever I have gone looking for them.

I think they were fencing it off a bit more last August.

Do the UGLs have PN numbers yet?
  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller
  DounutCereal Chief Train Controller

Location: Who knows.
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/efb5800/29958058414/
EFB5800
A little off topic but would that be one of the 3 new 93's that PN got with the UGLies in the foreground?
  EFB5800 Chief Train Controller

Location: On my office roof.
That's one of the old never sold GWU's that's been there for a while. I believe it is to become a 93 as part of the same deal for the PHs?

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